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interesting cover, new yorker magazine

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libertygrl
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Posted 05/12/05 - 9:00 PM:

yeah. cloning. downright freaky. ~lib



"Like Mother Like Daughter"
by Anita Kunz
e.
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Posted 05/13/05 - 3:03 AM:

Hi lib,

Who needs cloning! As I continue to get older, and look in the mirror, it's my father's face looking back at me. (There's a bit of my mum in there as well)

Cheers, e.



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Posted 05/13/05 - 2:30 PM:

what happens if...

two people, male and female, are cloned at birth and the clones are given separate identities and separated forever from the 'originals'. both couples marry and have children; the originals a boy and the copies a girl. can you guess what god did to these poor souls next? that's right! they get married and have kids because the law considers them to be different people by their identity even though they are brother and sister genetically.

well, that's a bit unstable as per its internal workings, but you get the drift. which one has possession of the legal identity if the authorities can't tell them apart genetically?

beans
libertygrl
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Posted 05/16/05 - 3:38 PM:

how can there be any confusion over legal identity when the law already considers them to be different people?
Rudi
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Posted 05/16/05 - 3:51 PM:

Don't worry... you'll get used to it... many prophesised the end of the world when test tube babies came on board... we're still here... cloning, like any other technology, can be used for good and evil... I'm not saying that there shouldn't be some important discussions about how this technology should be managed, but i don't think that its development should be supressed. shaking head

Rudi


libertygrl
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Posted 05/16/05 - 5:12 PM:

i don't believe cloning research should be suppressed in entirety, either. i think stem cell research (for example) is extremely valuable. i just feel that we're about as likely to produce a healthy human being via cloning as we are through generations of inbreeding.

*shrug*

lib
Rudi
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Posted 05/17/05 - 8:32 AM:

To be quite honest, I am not all that familiar with the mechanics of cloning. I don't know what the process entails, so I can't really comment on its potential drawbacks. I am sure that there must be some dangers asscoaited with the technology, just as there are many dangers associated with new 'wonder' drugs and other leading edge treatments. I think that it is a question of weighing the potential benefits against those potential dangers and making sure that everyone involved is well informed. Of course, in the case of cloning, the clone doesn't really get much of a say, so perhaps we just need to be really clear on when the technology should be used. I'm not so sure that I like the idea of 'boutique' cloning myself.

Rudi





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Posted 05/18/05 - 11:27 AM:

"how can there be any confusion over legal identity when the law already considers them to be different people?"

they are brother and sister in body but not in law. it would be illegal for them to marry if they were born to the same parents. genetically speaking, they are born of the same parents; yet can marry legally. the law would have to recognise the genetic heritage of the clone's children as being identical to the original's children's genetic heritage if the law wants to police in-breeding. also consider that if your clone commits a crime, dna evidence, finger printing and many other means used to apprehend criminals today would be practically inadmissible as evidence. you would have to try both the original and the clone to see which one's activities fit the circumstance; you could be tried on purely circumstantial evidence...

beans



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Posted 05/18/05 - 12:23 PM:

rudi,

cloning is startlingly simple; you extract the innards of just about any one of your cells and then inject it into the zygote of a suitable host. no fancy placement or catalysts or anything- you just suck it out of one cell and slurp it into another. have you seen 'the boys from brazil'? check it out as it's a great film for a stack of reasons, besides explaining how ludicrously simple cloning is. one 'downside' that has shown up with dolly the sheep is the rapid deteriorate of the cellular structure of the 'copy' as compared to the host. the copy ages faster than the host. it's spooky on a very cosmic level...

if it wasn't for protestantism, we probably would be cloning organs for ourselves already...

beans
libertygrl
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Posted 05/19/05 - 8:34 PM:

here's another good one.
you can click the image to enlarge it...
the detail on the faces is really great.
overpopulation, anyone? ~lib



"On Her Way"
by Carter Goodrich



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Posted 05/26/05 - 10:25 AM:

heya,

if the opportunities for advanvcement are becoming scarce, is than not a good reason to clone people who have proven themselves success within the system? it certainly seems to have worked for ants.

bea.. er.. nuts!

ps; i feel so funky when i press lib's 'submit' button.
libertygrl
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Posted 05/26/05 - 11:04 AM:

silly beans.. i push your 'submit' button too, don't ya know wink

anyway, success is not strictly determined by genetics...

Edited by libertygrl on 05/26/05 - 11:24 AM
smokinpristiformis
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Posted 05/26/05 - 11:09 AM:

hum


biologically speaking.. it usually is..
libertygrl
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Posted 05/26/05 - 11:26 AM:

how so?
smokinpristiformis
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Posted 05/26/05 - 11:47 AM:

well, you see.. it's that selfish gene thing..
those genes are selected who manage to reproduce themselves most...

so in the long term... we carry only 'succesful' genes (unless we have mutations)
the ones that lasted through selections

it's an entirely different form of succes though blush



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Posted 05/26/05 - 2:50 PM:

ah, but we're not talking about the child of a provably succesful person; it is that person. it actually would be tiger woods II, or majic johnson II, or einstein II, or meryl streep II, or pablo picaso II, or george bush III... he, wait aminute! pablo didn't wear jeans!

...or ernest bourgnine II (for you gattica fans)...

nuts
libertygrl
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Posted 05/26/05 - 3:18 PM:

nuts wrote:
ah, but we're not talking about the child of a provably succesful person; it is that person.

but it's not. a person's psychological makeup includes memories and experiences that would be impossible to clone.



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Posted 05/27/05 - 10:42 AM:

have you seen "the boys from brazil'? i discusses just this topic, and very well.

it's true that if magic johnson II lost a leg during childhood, no amount of controlled direction could compensate. consider a champion race horse; given the right training, it could excel over the original horse's record. but that doesn't take human desire into account, fair enough.

it would be handy if we had a set of siblings that grew up in similar social circumstances yet never meeting each other until at least twentyfive years of age. what do you think, lib?

nuts
libertygrl
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Posted 05/28/05 - 10:30 AM:

nuts wrote:
have you seen "the boys from brazil'? i discusses just this topic, and very well.

i haven't, what's it about?


nuts wrote:
but that doesn't take human desire into account, fair enough.

thus, in my opinion, trying to create a clone is no less than trying to create a slave. i just can't get behind it. like inbreeding, it's a manifestation of extreme narcissism. that's why it will never produce healthy human beings.


nuts wrote:

it would be handy if we had a set of siblings that grew up in similar social circumstances yet never meeting each other until at least twentyfive years of age. what do you think, lib?

nuts

actually, i've seen accounts of twins separated at birth who, when later reunited, discovered that they had similar styles of dress, drank the same brand of coffee, had chosen identical careers, etc. but twins are a different matter from clones, for the aforementioned reason which has to do with the intention behind creating a clone.

what do you think, nuts?

lib



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Posted 05/30/05 - 3:25 PM:

this is the same moral dilemma that the church faced when copernicus asserted the nature of the solar system. in recognising that the movement of the planets could be calculated, they thought that they we privy to god's plan. it was both blasphemous and empowering. they were afraid to 'play god'. as are we; same topic, different subject.

i was being facetious before; my full sister was adopted at birth, only to find out at thirty-five that myself and two more full siblings existed, too. it's the same story as the twins; given similar opportunities and choice ranges, we make the same decisions even though the parental backgrounds are quite different.

the boys from brazil are clones of hitler as grown by joseph mendler (if i recall). they are placed in similar situations to hilter's own upbringing in the hope of recreating his experience. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077269/
it's got a big-name cast, but suffers from poor cinematography, if i recall.

but it is surely a scary concept! i think we should be very cautious and wait for wisdom to guide us rather than profit (practically the 'anti-wisdom').

nuts
libertygrl
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Posted 05/30/05 - 5:01 PM:

to me it's not a problem with playing god; i have no problem with test tube babies or stem cell research, or science. for that matter, i think we're all playing god, anyway. we don't have much choice but to do so.

my position against cloning is not about religion or blasphemy. it is, however, about ethics. it's a position against the objectification of people. and it's about doing things for the right reasons. it seems that you would agree with that:

nuts wrote:
i think we should be very cautious and wait for wisdom to guide us rather than profit (practically the 'anti-wisdom').

and i'm not saying that genetics play no role in our development. i'm just saying they're not the only factor determining our choices. i'm not clear on whether you agree on that point.

what do you mean by "making the same decisions"? could you give some examples?

nuts wrote:
but it is surely a scary concept!

what do you find scary about it, out of curiosity?

smiling facelib



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Posted 06/01/05 - 1:49 PM:

in the determination of choices, availability is key, and so environment is intrinsically effecting. but predisposition for certain avenues (sporting, performing arts, soldiering) is innate as well. so both; the form meets function and we have life!

what do you mean by "making the same decisions"? could you give some examples?

she, mother and sister all teachers.
she, mother, sister and myself ice skate (a very rare pass-time in australia).
she and father joined the army reserves, medical corp and became sergeants.
we all have the same favourite childhood tv programs (even having learnt to recite the same lines), and have chosen to use similar mannerisms and social rituals.

she said that she always thought of herself as an individual, until she met the rest of us. she found the sheer weight of similarities upsetting at first. now it's been long enough that the differences, however small, are become more obvious and the spookiness of it all is subsiding.

what do you find scary about it, out of curiosity?

same as you; the objectification of people. the denial of the human soul in favour of the conscious mind as the defining attribute of the individual, therefore denigrating the meaning of human to a mere collection of post-natal experience rather than a profound universal existence. it's the fear that we will let self-control thru self-denial become our guide, that our souls will suffer the tyranny of our mind's desires.

to trade in lives should be outlawed, full bloody stop says i (makes a sound like a pirate).

nutssmiling face
libertygrl
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Posted 06/01/05 - 2:20 PM:

right on.

smiling facelib
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