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Thinker13
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#76 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/25/15 - 3:11 AM:

I am posting this especially for Sunlight's reference, but anyone curious can see why it's so.

Excerpt from: www.barbarapijan.com/bpa/Pr...ences_western_Jyotisha.htm

Why charts and ascendant, moon-signs, sun-signs are different in tropical(western) and sidereal(eastern) systems?

Jyotisha a.k.a. " Vedic astrology" uses the same sky full of stars as other popular astrological systems, including Tibetan, Chinese, Vietnamese, and the Ptolemaic (Tropical) astrology of the West.

If you are familiar with your western astrological chart, you'll notice that your Jyotisha planets and radical lagna take a different zodiacal position from the Ptolemaic *western-tropical positions. Jyotisha uses the sidereal zodiac. Sidereal reckoning is also used by astronomers.

Tropical astrology - unfortunately - uses the erroneous "Ptolemaic" calculations for positioning the planets. This is a historical accident and it is no one's fault. The error is essentially a result of tragic library losses during the end of the Roman Empire and the ensuing Dark Ages. At this time, a vast body of astrological literature was lost to European scholarship. (It would have been lost to Tibeto-Indian scholarship too, were it not preserved by the miracle of memorized Sanskrit metre chanting.)

Following that catastrophic destruction of the knowledge temples (in the dead center of Kali Yuga) one of the few surviving documents was a record of astronomical observations by an Alexandrian sky-watcher named Ptolemy. This document states that, over the period of his observations (less than 60 years) the zero point of Aries did not seem to move.

Having few other texts to consult, the struggling European astrological scholars came to believe that the zero point of Aries *never* shifts! Yikes! That's an awful mistake, and it's had awful consequences for a whole tradition that can no longer make accurate predictions.

But, they can do something! Joining into the rich artistic and literary developments of post-Roman European civilization, the tropical astrological tradition has instead focused on psychology, poetry, archetypes, and mystical symbolism.

This orientation to subconscious psychological imagery (in the deep sense of psyche, meaning 'soul') has loaded up the intuitive (not rule-driven) side of astrological divination, and made unscholarly pattern-recognition readings the option of choice.

The tropical tradition has produced uncountable numbers of gifted psychic readers have said they were " astrologers" when in fact they were intuitive mystics.



Why inaccurate Tropical Astrology has Survived : true Clairvoyance


The clairvoyant perception of this class of European " astrologers" has produced many accurate readings through the centuries. But it is important to understand that these intuitive readers were not practicing astronomically-based astrology.

Proper astrology is a " vidya" or knowledge-base. The " -logy" in astro-logy consists of a body of logical rules. In Jyotisha, the body of rules is supported by traditional spiritual tools such as mantra and puja, which are designed to guide the Jyotishi toward intuitive alignment, and wise and compassionate counseling. But the core of the -logy is definitely a body of calculation and interpretation rules.

When tropical astrologers try to use their body of rules to predict future events, their predictions nearly always fail (because their calculations are incorrect). And of course tropical astrology's failed predictions are a leading cause of the present western " science" taboo against astrology in any form.

Yet the European tradition did not die out, even when educated people came to associate it with gullible ignorance and charlatanism. The reason for its survival IMO is the presence of so many gifted clairvoyants, posing as tropical " astrologers"


Clairvoyance vs. Astrology

In these early centuries of Dwapara yuga with its huge emphasis on reasoning and positivistic materialism, the completely irrational gifts of clairvoyance and clairaudience are held in even lower esteem than the rational-looking " charts" of Ptolemaic astrology!

In practice, then, frightened clairvoyant/clairaudient intuitives often hide behind the slightly more historic and respectable facade of astrological science in the attempt to not look or sound insane.

The patterns in a tropical chart can provide an effective signal to open the reader's intuitive listening. When sensitive intuitive readers respond to the perceptions they receive through their astral bodies, the " astrological" reading they produce may match the client's needs in a very direct and accurate way.

Indeed, this question-answer match through (what Jung calls) synchronicity can be mediated by a " chart" as well as by a photograph, a handwriting sample, or a lock of hair. However the interpretive power involved is an authentically psychic reading of the native 's astral body imagery -- and not at all astro-logical.

As clairvoyance becomes more socially accepted, I believe that most of these intuitives will stop claiming that the tropical astrological charts provide the " reason" that they know what they know. Ideally, they will feel safe enough to " come out of the closet" and admit the true source of their knowledge, which is purely psychic seeing into the astral body imagery of the client.

At that point, the tropical astrological tradition with its faulty Ayanamsha will collapse, and more accurate astrologies such as Jyotisha will take their place.


Apples and Oranges

Jyotisha predictions depend heavily on the proper calculation of various " dasha" timelines combined with " gochara" (cow-path) transits. The lunar " Nakshatra " astrology is intensely psychological and reveals the native 's psychic relationship to one of 27 guiding deities. Daily events can be timed using the panchanga * lunar ephemeris. Using these analytical tools, Jyotisha predictions for both character and the timing of events tend to be quite reliable.

Western astrological predictions use tropical progressions and transits only. Western horary predictions from the tropical ephemeris have a poor track record. However as noted above, there is a class of clairvoyants who use tropical charts as an intuitive reading tool.

Due to this group's intuitive abilities combined with the development of symbolic, psychological thought in the West, " tropical astrological" readings may have a valuable healing and spiritually validating effect on the client.

It will be easier to work with the Jyotisha readings if you can set aside any preconceptions about the " correct" positions by sign, degree, etc.. The two systems are largely incommensurable- like apples and oranges - so comparing them is generally unproductive.

Suzuki Roshi's " beginners mind" is a great attitude for the tropicalist to have when learning how to use Jyotisha charts.


Can I use a tropical ephemeris

The conversion factor given in your tropical ephemeris for " Sidereal" position will give the " western sidereal" degree not the Jyotisha degree.

Anyway there is not just one Jyotisha degree. The fact that there are several ayanamsha in the Jyotisha world creates what practicing Jyotishi call " the vexed matter of the ayanamsha" smiling face There are several Jyotisha positions in common use by astrologers in India and worldwide. I use the Lahiri ayanamsha.

It's not so east to cipher this correction from a tropical paper ephemeris. If you are interested in learning Jyotisha, I strongly recommended getting some quality Jyotisha software that does the calculations by computer.

One thing that will definitely not work to interpret your Jyotisha chart, is to look up your Jyotisha sign and house positions in western astrology books. Just switching from thinking " I am a Gemini" to thinking " I am a Taurus" is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

The western psycho-typology with its dependence on transits and progressions is not capable of generating consistent predictions, so just plugging in new "sidereal" positions into poetic tropical symbols will not give any better results.

One might produce an interesting psychological profile from looking up the Jyotisha planetary positions to tropical descriptive books. It wouldn't reflect " you" but it might be an interesting study in the human condition!

Consistent real-world predictions come from using the " dasha" systems in Jyotisha. Unfortunately, there is no surviving analog to the " dasha" timelines in the tropical system.

However, even though Western astrology won't help you predict events, it might help deepen spiritual awareness. Similarly, divinations via Tarot, I-Ching, tea-leaves, reading of omens and gazing can all be accurate. All forms of divination afford communication with the divine.

But only Jyotisha gives significant predictive results regarding the dimension of human experience we call " time".




Edited by Thinker13 on 07/25/15 - 1:38 PM
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#77 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/25/15 - 8:49 AM:

s
Starjade replies; Thinker 13 was talking about moon signs you asshole so pay attention .................thinker was wrong but that was not your fault ....your fault is far greater than his in insulting the living GOD why don't you pay attention to far GREATER matters ?
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#78 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/25/15 - 9:02 AM:

Psalm 2:12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way ...
biblehub.com/psalms/2-12.htm
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him. New American Standard version
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#79 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/25/15 - 9:07 AM:

Thinker13 wrote:



I clearly understand what you're trying to say, I know about the western system but I don't practice that. Not a problem in any case. hug

Have a nice day. peace
..............yes you are right thinker you have been taught by your system in the east in india and I have been brought up by the western system here , I am satisfied with the western system and you are satisfied with the eastern system ....you to have a nice day peace
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#80 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/25/15 - 9:19 AM:

QUOTE STARIADE ..don't panic thinker .......I don't think thinker is going to panic over differences in western and eastern astrology readings in birth charts , BUT you stariade have plenty to panic over with the end so near , and you having to face the LIVING GOD over the insults to his son .
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#81 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/26/15 - 3:35 AM:

thinker wrote
However, even though Western astrology won't help you predict events..........................................I must correct you again thinker , I have successfully used western astrology to predict events ,I mentioned before that I predicted an event in my life 3 months before it happened from the ephemeris I showed you and the positions of the sun moon and planets 3 months ahead of the day I was setting up the chart and all the details in that prediction came right 3 months later so accurately as to the day,and time of day to within 15 minutes to the actual event predicted 3 months earler...the day was correct, the time was accurate to within 15 minutes , the name of the person invoved was correct the age and physical appearance of the person was correct even to the colour of his hair .....you cant get more accurate than that nod
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#82 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/26/15 - 4:11 AM:

FOR THINKERS attention ... NAMASTE THINKER ;....at the time of my birth the sign intercepted in the ascendant was the sign of aquarius, by tradion the sign of aquarius is ruled by the planet Uranus which is associated with astrology ,40 years later this planet had moved to the sign scorpio which is the sign that Uranus is exalted in and in the exact year (1978) and the exact moths april and may I decided to take up the study ofv astrology of course I did not know at the time that the time I picked in my life to start the study of astrology was the same time that Uranus had just enterd its sign of exaltation thus starting me on the study of astrology........................as to this next sign thinker I don't onow if this was just a coincidence but on the day of my birth 1939 the planet mars thought to be the god of war was on the midheaven point of my birth chart exalted by position over everything else and as you know 1939 is the year that the secondv world war broke out and war was exalted over everything else
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#83 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/26/15 - 4:35 AM:

e Fourth Day: Sun, Moon, Stars
…16God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.….......................................as well as the literal placing of these material bodies in the sky giving physical light upon the earth, they are also used to show spiritual events in which the light is to mean understanding of events taking place upon the earth ,,,I will give one small example , the blood red moon can indicate the church in turmoil for the moon in certain cases is ment to stand for a church or even a covenant...GOD uses erthy bodies to also undicate in shadows and types and signs things that are about to take place upon yhr earth
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#84 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/26/15 - 4:51 AM:

JOSEPHS DREAM " ...... I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me." 10He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?"…................................................notice that the sun moon and stars were used by GOD to undicate Jacob , Rachel josephs mother and the 11 stars josephs 11 brothers ......................here today thosands of years later we have lost the ability to recognise signs in the sun moon and starts.

.
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#85 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/26/15 - 9:52 AM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:
thinker wrote
However, even though Western astrology won't help you predict events..........................................I must correct you again thinker , I have successfully used western astrology to predict events ,I mentioned before that I predicted an event in my life 3 months before it happened from the ephemeris I showed you and the positions of the sun moon and planets 3 months ahead of the day I was setting up the chart and all the details in that prediction came right 3 months later so accurately as to the day,and time of day to within 15 minutes to the actual event predicted 3 months earler...the day was correct, the time was accurate to within 15 minutes , the name of the person invoved was correct the age and physical appearance of the person was correct even to the colour of his hair .....you cant get more accurate than that nod



If you read the post #133 close enough--it might have made it clear that Tropical Ephemeris is inaccurate because Ptolemy committed an error--that's he thought that the zero point in Aries doesn't move. This error was not recognized up until 20th century--when many western astrologers started practicing Sidereal Astrology.

As to why you had accurate predictions about things: As stated in post #133--it's more to do with your psychic abilities than the accuracies of calculations in Tropical system.

I really don't want you to convert or something. Not at all. I clearly see a technical error which is clear enough to be recognized by anyone in Tropical system--and I came to learn about it from a western person. It's true that nobody can quickly change his beliefs about such matters. Since you've for long believed yourself to be Gemini--you won't accept that you're Taurus.

Let me give you an example: Taurus people have a stable mind--they're persistent. This is just one of the prime features of Taurus Moon.

I see you having a stable mind.

Gemini people have a dual mind--for a while they might be serious and very patient--and for a while they might be totally playful and joking.

You see the difference?

I clearly don't see you as a Gemini mentality.

But if you see yourself as a Gemini--I can't change that.peace
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#86 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/27/15 - 8:31 AM:

FALSE PROPHET SAID Especially with the Starjade pointing the way ......................any one who calls the son of the LIVING GOD a fraud can only point the way to hell
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#87 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/27/15 - 8:41 AM:

TO ANTICHRIST ....you are right about the DOMESDAY and as that day is near you may be able to explain to the LIVING GOD why you are calling him a liar as regards to the testimony he has given of his son , providing you escape being vapourised when the nations gathered together in the middle east start letting of their missiles
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#88 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/27/15 - 8:49 AM:

Malachi 4:1 -

Look, the day is coming, burning like an oven. All the arrogant ones and all those doing evil will become straw. The coming day will burn them, says the Lord
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Posted 07/28/15 - 8:38 AM:

THE FALSE PROPHET WROTE " There you do quoting the Old Testament again. Tell us all honestly Sunlight do you truly wish to be a Jew. You see to be obsessed by quoting the Old Testament ..........................and you seem obseesed with the book of Deuteronomy which is a dead book without the light of JESUS to give itlife , so stay with dead scripture which is like the boes without the meat ..........the old testament was written by men inspired by the spirit of the living GOD not your false living GOD who does not have a son , but the REAL LIVING GOD who has a son called JESUS ......everything has a positive and negative side ....the old testament is the darkness and the new testament is the light and both were inspired by THE TRUE LIVING GO and the 2 make up the whole , like day and night make up the whole of the day you cant have one without the other while in our present inspiration but without the the testimony of JES which is the spirit of prophecy you wont have a clue as to what I am talking about if I have undertstanding of both old and new testaments I am fully clothed not like you who with the book of deuteronomywhich seems to be your obsession are dressed in spiritual RAGS ...is that only my opinion...NO ! it is also the opinion of someone far greater than me or you beggarman.
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#90 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/28/15 - 8:42 AM:

2 Timothy 3:16-17King James Version (KJV)

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
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#91 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/30/15 - 8:34 AM:

THE FALSE PROPHET WROTE " Once again you have been mistaken..................................THIS from a man who says the LIVING GOD does not have a son called JESUS ..that's the GREAT mistake.
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#92 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/30/15 - 8:41 AM:

New International Version
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son
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#93 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/30/15 - 9:25 AM:

THE FALSE PROPHET WROTE " . They expect that that long awaited Deuteronomy Prophet to build that Third Temple.....................the 3rd temple has been in building the the past uilding for 2,000 years with JESUS the corner stone of that temple and the apostles the foundations .....as long as one looks to the literal building of the temple without seeing the spiritual building , one will always be like the traditional jews of today banging their heads on the western wall and chanting let the temple be built soon but ALMIGHTY GOD laid the chief corner stone of that temple 2,000 years ago and the temple has been building ever since and will shortly be completed when the last stones (people ) will be laid and then GOD will enter that temple ......are these only my own observations ....oh no ...see below .

Edited by SUNLIGHT on 07/30/15 - 9:39 AM
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#94 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/30/15 - 9:31 AM:

EPH 4:12

And are built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.
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#95 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/30/15 - 9:47 AM:

IST COR 3:16 : Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst?
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#96 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/01/15 - 9:36 AM:

QUOTE THINKER
As to why you had accurate predictions about things: As stated in post #133--it's more to do with your psychic abilities than the accuracies of calculations in Tropical system..................well I never really saw myself as a psychic ...did you see something in my birth chart that suggested to you that I might have psychic abilities ...can you mention any aspects ? in western astrology the pshychic signs are said to be pisces which is linked with the 12 hose of hidden and secret things to be born with psychic there would have to be positive aspects to those signs and houses ...is that also the belief of eastern astrology as well ?

Edited by SUNLIGHT on 08/01/15 - 9:45 AM
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#97 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/05/15 - 8:49 AM:

THINKER WROTE

But if you see yourself as a Gemini--I can't change that.............not me only thinker but at the moment of my birth the publishers of raphaels ephemeris said that on January 4 1839 the moon was in Gemini....why should I disbelieve them ?rolling eyes
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#98 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/05/15 - 8:57 AM:

THINKER WRITES ... I see you having a stable mind........well I cant argue with that an I thinker ?zen
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