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Disabled people and minimum wage

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libertygrl
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Posted 06/22/13 - 11:06 AM:
Subject: Disabled people and minimum wage
So, apparently it's legal in the U.S. to pay disabled people less than minimum wage. The rationale is that they are not able to get as much work done as the average "abled" person so they should get paid less? What do you guys think? Fair or unfair?

openchannel.nbcnews.com/_ne...nies-an-hour-and-its-legal
thedoc
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Posted 06/22/13 - 11:35 PM:

The minimum wage is a bad idea in the first place, it doesn't do what is claimed it will do. Let the employer pay what the job is worth, and keep the government out of it.
henry quirk
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Posted 06/24/13 - 9:31 AM:

"minimum wage is a bad idea"

Yep.

How goes it, Doc?

And: how goes it, Lib?
libertygrl
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Posted 06/29/13 - 10:20 AM:

crazy busy with school.

how goes it with you henry?
henry quirk
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Posted 07/01/13 - 9:15 AM:

Same old, same old...

Mostly, *raising the Great BEAST of the Apocalypse is what keeps me busy.


School? You must be on your fifth degree by now, Lib.








*countermanding HIS rabid impulse to indulge in all manner of dangerous, potentially lethal, activities...'no, Sir Monk, you can't climb up on the roof and jump off...you will not fly...*sigh*'
thedoc
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Posted 07/01/13 - 10:24 AM:

henry quirk wrote:
"minimum wage is a bad idea"

Yep.

How goes it, Doc?

And: how goes it, Lib?



Hello Henry, thanks for asking, things are going well here, the daughter (Massage Therapast) is changing jobs again so my schedule is changing, I don't have the grandkids as much but when? is the question. Today the grandson wants to go to his dad's place and the grandaughter wants to come here, should be a lot quieter than when they are both here fighting over something. I've been working on the attic and have a shelf all the way around, now I need to lay some track (HO scale) and I can run long trains. A single loop around the outside will be aproximately 200 feet long and If I can get things cleared away the kids will be able to ride their bikes around to follow the train, or they could just walk.
My son is doing well working at a landscapers and basically when they bid a 'tree job' he is in charge of the work. He is a certified Arborist
My other daughter is in brooklyn, doing well, I just can't understand how she could grow up in the woods and now lives in NY city. But she seems happy and her husband works in IT and can pretty much call his own shots on work.
The wife is still working and I'm getting more time on the piano, I'm hoping to post something on 'YouTube' someday, just have to record something good enough, and figure out how to do it, I already have an account there, and I have the equipment to record it.
That's about all from the woods, everything else is peaceful and quiet, this morning we were watching a White Tale Deer feeding about 35 feet from the house. As we were watching, he was looking at the house where we were looking out, he must have heard something.
libertygrl
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Posted 07/04/13 - 5:05 PM:

henry quirk wrote:
School? You must be on your fifth degree by now, Lib.

I wish! I actually spent a good many years *not* going to school, and now I'm going part time plus I've been taking extra music classes at a nearby music college. Technically I haven't even completed my freshman year. sisyphus Loving it though. thumb up
libertygrl
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Posted 07/04/13 - 5:06 PM:

thedoc wrote:


The wife is still working and I'm getting more time on the piano, I'm hoping to post something on 'YouTube' someday, just have to record something good enough, and figure out how to do it, I already have an account there, and I have the equipment to record it.


please do! thumb up
thedoc
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Posted 07/05/13 - 10:28 AM:

libertygrl wrote:


please do! thumb up



I'm working on it. If you are attending college for music, I assume that you play several instruments, I seem to remember something about the piano, do you have a particular instrument of interest or voice? My younger daughter took voice lessons for several years and while she had her lessons I was in the next room listening, actually I learned some things about voice. She has a good vioce, perfict pitch, and almost a 3 octive range, but TMJ put an end to her singing more than just occasionally. It's difficult to sing when it hurts to open your mouth. I'm in a similar situation with the piano, I have arthritis on the joint of my right thumb at the wrist, if you play 'Moonlight Sonata' 1st movment, by Beethoven you know how much it uses the right thumb at an octive extension. That is one of 2 pieces I have memorized and can play (on a good day) as well as any recording I have heard. I'm also seeing a doctor to determine what can be done to relieve the discomfort, sometimes it's distracting and throws me off my playing.
thedoc
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Posted 07/05/13 - 10:45 AM:

In college I took a basic music course and did pretty well, but being an Industrial Arts major didn't leave any room on my sceduel for additional electives. I remember a story the professor told about attending an Opera 'The Barber of Seville'. He and his friend both understood Italian, and were laughing out loud at the jokes. They were also getting a lot of 'dirty looks' from other people in the audience who didn't understand what was being said and must have thought it rude to laugh at an Opera.

I played the Coronet in the college orchestra, and the one vivid memory is sitting through measure after measure of rests when we preformed Bolero by Ravel. The trumpet section, about 4 of us, didn't come in till the end.
KinNaoko90
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Posted 07/09/13 - 7:19 AM:

I've really missed you guys. hug

The entire paying disabled people (people like me) less than minimum wage thing concerns me though. I knew that vocational programs like TEP did not pay a lot... but I had no idea that some were payed under minimum wage. To be honest, I find that to be bullshit. I have seen people with disabilities in their work settings. They often are put to doing tasks that are very demanding on them given their circumstances. On top of being demanding, many work their hearts out without taking breaks.

One such person works at the local Walmart as a cart pusher. I believe he has some hallucinations/delusions since he exhibits some traits such as talk to someone who is not there. Regardless, he walks all over the parking lot gathering carts and pushing them back. Rain or shine; Hot or cold; he pushes those carts for hours on end. The other staff babytalk to him, ignore him, or insult him, but it may not be in his capacity to realize what's going on. Every time I go to Walmart, I see him pushing carts back and forth. If there are no carts to be pushed for whatever reason, he mops the floor. I highly doubt he does this for the money. It's more likely he does it to feel useful and give himself a purpose. Even so, with the medications he takes (I overheard him talking about taking them), he should be limiting his activity in the extreme heat and sun. It's been over 90 for the past week. I went to Walmart a couple of days ago and he was still out pushing carts.

To know what he and others even worse off than him go through and realize they might be paid under minimum wage is heartbreaking. If people are doing their jobs at an efficient level they should be paid at the very least minimum wage. If they are not meeting the required efficiency, then they shouldn't have a job. Of all the people I know (with disabilities and without), the disabled who have jobs tend to work harder than the "average Joe". Why? Because they have more to prove and more reason to prove that.

Politicians get paid tons and screw up our nation. Reporters get paid and report half the news story or a false news story. Weathermen get paid and give us highly inaccurate forecasts. Actors get paid insane amounts to produce comedies on how pathetic America is.

Teachers barely get paid anything and they are tasked with producing the future of America. Nurse are underpaid and understaffed despite being tasked with the health of current America. The hardest workers in America and the ones with the most potential for productivity barely get enough to scrape by. Our society needs to change.

We need to get rid of capitalism. We need to realize that socialism is not a negative thing and never was. In fact... it was created as a stepping stone to the utopian communism. We need to realize that already we have socialism in our schools, fire departments, and many other facets of our lives. I believe if we want to put different values on jobs, then the ones most essential to us should be payed higher. If we need incentives we should offer bonuses for exemplary results. If 90 percent of students pass a class with extremely high grades, then the teacher of that class should be rewarded. If a doctor convinces several of their patients to quit smoking, drinking or whatever... that doctor should be rewarded. If a cart pusher pushes an extraordinary amount of carts through any weather and any temperature, keeps busy being productive while his normal job is unavailable, and reports in as early and as scheduled, then that cart pusher deserves a reward.

I'm not saying all of these rewards should always be of a monetary amount. Extra vacation/sickleave, employee of the week/month, something to show that their work is being noticed.

Moreover, those who do not even fulfill the requirements should be dealt with properly.

No one who is working and meeting the requirements of the job should have to earn less than minimum wage.
henry quirk
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Posted 07/09/13 - 9:40 AM:

Doc, Lib: I'm glad both of you are busy and well...nuthin' worse than idle and sick.

#

Kin,

I have no issue with 'socialism' or 'communism' or any form of communitarianism...for those who crave such things (and the imaginary or real benefits such systems bring): more power to ya!

Me: I will not participate.

Enact 'utopia' as you like and can...and leave me alone.
KinNaoko90
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Posted 07/09/13 - 3:26 PM:

henry quirk wrote:


Kin,

Enact 'utopia' as you like and can...and leave me alone.


laughing I do not really believe in utopia. It is merely a goal I will be striving for on as basic a level as is possible considering perfection is an illusion.
thedoc
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Posted 07/09/13 - 7:42 PM:

henry quirk wrote:
Doc, Lib: I'm glad both of you are busy and well...nuthin' worse than idle and sick.

#

Kin,

I have no issue with 'socialism' or 'communism' or any form of communitarianism...for those who crave such things (and the imaginary or real benefits such systems bring): more power to ya!

Me: I will not participate.

Enact 'utopia' as you like and can...and leave me alone.



My only real problem with socialism, communism, and utopia is that those who want to impose them want to do so forceably to include everyone else as well.

Like Henry, leave me alone or I might hit you with something large and heavy. (and not my wife). Ford F-150 comes to mind.

Those meanies won't give my crowbar back, so I had to get another one.
Vagabond
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Posted 08/15/13 - 7:59 AM:

The free market has some serious shortcomings. The invisible hand looks good on paper, but it doesn't really work. Even in today's internet age there is no such thing even close to perfect information. The same goes for communism; it looks good on paper, but it doesn't work.

A mixed-economy is therefore the most practical way to go. In this context minimum wage makes sense. To deny this basic right to differently abled people is a dangerously slippery slope. What next? Should we say that the provision of accessibility (e.g., accessible buses, ramps, wheelchair accessible toilets, etc.) should also be left to the market?
henry quirk
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Posted 08/15/13 - 9:04 AM:

"...minimum wage makes sense. To deny this basic right to differently abled people is a dangerously slippery slope."

The slippery slope is creating a 'right' (codifying it, make it 'law', that a body is entitled to 'this' or 'that' simply because he or she exists).

And: let's not dance with the language...the guy in a wheelchair is not 'differently abled', he's crippled. This is not an ugly judgment but just an observation. His legs don't work...he's crippled.

Another correction of the language dance: 'rights' means 'privilege'...that is, Joe in the wheelchair is deemed as needy and will be given money to live (by way of a stipend or by way of a guaranteed minimum wage). This is a privilege, a gift (with strings).

Thing is, one way or another: some one is gonna have to pick up the tab for that privilege.

How very nice for others to decide for me that I should have the great pleasure of being that one to foot the bill.

Screw that...if Joe the wheelchair-bound cripple (or his proxies) wants my money: come take it.

I'll not give it willingly.

#

"Should we say that the provision of accessibility (e.g., accessible buses, ramps, wheelchair accessible toilets, etc.) should also be left to the market?"

The market decides nuthin'.

The market is just the measurable median of countless transactions between, among, and of individuals (and, to an extent, the codifying of those transactions).

If this is the case: then the choice of making a home or business accessible should lay with the home or business owner.

If Sam the butcher doesn’t give a flip about cripples then Sam won't install a ramp.

Comes down to this: not Sam's fault Joe is stuck in wheelchair...can't see why Sam must absorb a cost he never reckoned on or agreed to.

"But what of Joe?!"

Yeah, what of Joe?

If his plight is bothersome to you and others then YOU take care of him.

Me: I don't wanna (and I'm not goin' to).

Yes, I'm an AWFUL person...*shrug*

##

"Those meanies won't give my crowbar back, so I had to get another one."

Good on you, Doc... wink
thedoc
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Posted 08/15/13 - 12:20 PM:

henry quirk wrote:

"Should we say that the provision of accessibility (e.g., accessible buses, ramps, wheelchair accessible toilets, etc.) should also be left to the market?"

The market decides nuthin'.

The market is just the measurable median of countless transactions between, among, and of individuals (and, to an extent, the codifying of those transactions).

If this is the case: then the choice of making a home or business accessible should lay with the home or business owner.

If Sam the butcher doesn’t give a flip about cripples then Sam won't install a ramp.

Comes down to this: not Sam's fault Joe is stuck in wheelchair...can't see why Sam must absorb a cost he never reckoned on or agreed to.

##
"Those meanies won't give my crowbar back, so I had to get another one."

Good on you, Doc... wink



The point of accessibility Is difficult to apply in an overall code. If a business sells primarily lawn mowers and chain saws there is little likelihood that they will have many customers in wheelchairs. A restaurant, on the other hand, might have a reasonable percentage of customers that are in wheelchairs and it would be economically good to be accessible to them. Having a bureaucrat make those decisions results in a thick code book that does not realistically cover all situations, or the requirements are simplified that every one must be accessible regardless of the need.
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