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Invasion of privacy

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libertygrl
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Posted 03/01/13 - 7:19 PM:
Subject: Invasion of privacy
Does suspicion of wrongdoing justify the invasion of privacy?

Of course, with the American justice system, one must obtain a search warrant before searching someone's property without their permission.

What about in relationships between 2 people? How much evidence is needed to "warrant" an invasion of privacy to confirm whether a partner is cheating? Or how about if a child is suspected of doing something harmful to themselves - for example drugs? Is it worth going through someone's email or personal belongings only to find out the suspicions were unfounded? Do the ends justify the means?

Any thoughts?
thedoc
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Posted 03/01/13 - 9:50 PM:

The idea of the "invasion of privacy" presupposes that there is a "right to privacy", and this is the concept that needs to be debated first. In reality the only things you can expect to be private are the thoughts in your own head that you do not express, otherwise everything that you say and do, can and will becone public at some time. If you have an expectation of privacy, don't go out and keep your windows closed and shuttered.
libertygrl
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Posted 03/01/13 - 10:51 PM:

well, in a monogamous relationship there's generally some establishment of trust, right? in order for that to happen, certain boundaries are agreed upon. let's say 2 domestic partners agree not to read each other's emails. but one suspects the other of an affair, and goes ahead and reads their email. let's say the suspicion ends up being founded, and there really is infidelity going on. was the invasion of privacy justified in that case? is it only justified if the person ends up being right about their suspicion? or is it any way justified beforehand?
henry quirk
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Posted 03/02/13 - 11:36 AM:

There's the legal notion of 'privacy' which folks go some way to enforcing/protecting, and, there's the reality that the only private place is between your ears.

Ain't no such animal as unconditional trust (or love).

Each side will always do (and self-justify) as he and she pleases.

Trust (love) never trumps self-interest, so, if self-interest demands privacy invasion, then privacy invasion it will be.

Edited by henry quirk on 03/02/13 - 12:00 PM. Reason: expansion
thedoc
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Posted 03/02/13 - 5:59 PM:

There are a couple of things going on here, you are talking about 'trust' and that would imply that there is nothing to hide, so not reading the e-mails should really not be an issue. Boundries would seem to mean that there is something to hide and is off limits. In a real, honest, trusting relationship, there should be nothing to hide. When I got married I told my soon-to-be wife that I would answer questions, but she should be sure that she wanted to hear the answer. I was thinking of this song,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudLAQhZ8Vs

Everyone has a past, but the present should be honest or the relationship isn't real. If one is hiding something, there is no trust in the first place. I post a lot on the internet forums and I tell my wife some of it, others I don't think she is really interested in, but if she asked I'd help her find it.

Henry, I disagree about the 'unconditional love', and as evidence I offer my relationship with my daughter and granchildren, and I would ask you to consider your nephew.
henry quirk
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Posted 03/04/13 - 9:45 AM:

"I disagree about the 'unconditional love', and as evidence I offer my relationship with my daughter and granchildren, and I would ask you to consider your nephew."

Well, there's a context to my above comment, that being 'two adults'.

Of course, you're right...when it comes to the BEAST there are no conditions to my love for him...I also have no problem 'violating' his privacy.

Interesting: I would think twice before 'violating' the privacy of an adult who I love (with conditions), but wouldn't think twice about 'violating' the privacy of a child who I love (without condition).
thedoc
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Posted 03/04/13 - 8:54 PM:

Well I will say that having 2 children, my daughter is now an 'adult', but I know that is not what you are refering to. Of course I have a few children and several grandchildren to practice on, so unconditional love is a possibility. Even with 2 adults in a romantic relationship it is possible to develope an unconditional love but sadly it is very rare. If you are careing for a child then it almost becomes your responsability to 'invade their privacy' in order to take care of them and keep them from harm. Children have not yet developed the judgment to know harm when they encounter it, so parents must do what is necessary to keep them safe, even when they don't like it. My daughter scares me sometimes with how much freedom she gives the kids, but there isn't much I can do about it.
henry quirk
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Posted 03/05/13 - 10:07 AM:

Mebbe I should explain what I mean by 'unconditional love' (love without conditions).

My nephew is six: if he did something *'awful' it would have no effect on my love for him. As you say, "Children have not yet developed the judgment" not only to 'know harm' but also to know when they 'do' harm (except in the most obvious ways).

My love for the boy is constant no matter what he does.

If he treats me badly ("I hate you, Uncle!"), it stings, but I understand it's an ungoverned impulse...the love doesn't diminish (though the 'like' may take a temporary dip... wink ).

Now: with an adult there 'are' conditions.

With the woman who used to be my wife, the conditions were few, but 'hard': no infidelity, no lies, no **insanity.

She was good for the first and the second but not the third.

*shrug*

Anyway: I guess it 'is' possible for two adults to love one another without conditions, but the level of trust involved for such a thing is way beyond me.










*define this as you like

**melodramatic horseshit like, for example, demanding I become something other than what I am...seems the qualities that draw a woman to me are the very ones that get her goin' to 'refine' me...screw that noise.
thedoc
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Posted 03/07/13 - 12:40 AM:

"LOVE" is probably the most overused and least understood word in the English language, and it's probably a good thing that I am writing this after several glasses of wine, otherwise I would be much too rational. "LOVE" is unconditional, or it really isn't love, it's lust, infatuation, or like (which is conditiional) but not love. Really I had a lot of really good arguments for this earlier today, but I didn't get to the computer in time. If you 'Love' someone, you are willing to stand by them and support them no matter what they do, real love believes in the other person till that trust is totally shattered, and only then will love die and go away. If you think about the extremes that someone will go to for someone they love you will see that this is true. 'Like' can be turned off in a moment, but Love will endure just about anything.

Friendship is based on the love of a fellow human being and has nothing to do with romantic love. Even a sucessful marrage is not based on romantic love but the love you have for your best friend. It's also based on trust and the willingness to share what you do not share with others. On the internet I consider that I have one other person that I really count as a friend and I have shared things that I have only shared with family, and there only spareingly. Friends are hard to come by and should be delt with honestly.

Sanity is much over-rated, perhaps that insanity could have made your life more exciting, if not peaceful.

If you fall in Love with someone, it's for what they are, not what you think you can make of them. That is self-love and has nothing to do with the other person. Too many people can't see past the mirror.
henry quirk
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Posted 03/07/13 - 9:58 AM:

For me: love is simply valuing the other as much as I value 'me' (which is a LOT). Moreover, it's a valuing intrinsic to the person loved...that is: I love the BEAST for 'him' (for who he is) making that love idiosyncratic and non-comparable to the equally idiosyncratic love(s) I have for other individuals.

No other definition makes any sense to me.


As for 'conditions', in this context, they are synonymous with 'expectations'.

I expect, for example, fidelity, honesty, and sanity from a wife.

She, knowing full well what I expect ('cause I tell her at the start) is free to meet those expectations or not...either way: I act accordingly.


And: sanity should be prized and cherished...there's damned little of it in the world, so don't take it for granted... wink
thedoc
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Posted 03/07/13 - 11:28 PM:

Perhaps Love is as individual as people are, no 2 people understand it the same or express it the same. There is even a difference in the love one person feels toward different people, so trying to make a description that fits all situations is not possible. Love can only be discribed as ubiquitous and unique at the same time.

Perhaps sanity is not the correct discriptive, I have been having long rambeling conversations with a 3 year old, and have learned that is is no fun to try and direct the course of those conversations. I just go wherever she takes me and am finding that it is very refreshing and freeing to just let go and not be in control, and it seemed that sanity was not the correct way to describe it.
henry quirk
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Posted 03/08/13 - 9:55 AM:

"Love can only be discribed as ubiquitous and unique at the same time."

Yep... wink

#

"...that is is no fun to try and direct the course of those conversations."

HA!

Yeah, same applies to a six year-old BEAST. He leads; I follow.

libertygrl
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Posted 03/20/13 - 12:26 AM:

alice miller once said that unconditional love is something only parents should have for their children, and i agree with that.

but yes, it does matter how you define love.

i honestly believe i will always love my second ex-husband, even though that doesn't mean i want to be with him. it just means i appreciate who he is and the ways that we helped each other grow.

in order to be in a balanced relationship with an adult, though, there definitely have to be mutually respected conditions - limits on what you're willing to tolerate.

doc, it's admirable that you and your partner have a trusting relationship that means no email etc is off limits. on the other hand, i think there's something to be said for having a part of yourself which is only your own, whether it is a journal that is off limits or one's email or whatever other piece of yourself that you hold private, to me that seems reasonable.
thedoc
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Posted 03/20/13 - 1:40 PM:

Thankyou, yes we do have a very good relationship and that was due to setting as much out as possible in the beginning. BTW Monday was our 35th anniversary so we must be doing something right. The day before she asked if I ever thought I'd be married to the same woman for 35 years and I told her I never thought it would be any other way. I had thought of getting her a rose for each year, then I priced them, so I got her a dozen. I set them in the bedroom, thinking she would come in the door, set her things down, and head for the bathroom passing right by the flowers. Instead she started in the kitchen making supper. After awhile I thought if I don't tell her she'll not see them till late, so I took her back to see them and enjoy them the rest of the evening.

I believe limits are a good thing in a relationship, but in regards to something like e-mails I would set a condition. E-mails and cell phones can be off limits for the other person to look at, except for infidelity. In a marrage there is an expectation of being faithfull (unless it is set out in the beginning that you are going to have the kind of marrage that allows affairs), so there can be an expectation that some things are off limits, but if there is an affair then all bets are off and I would expect to be able to examine everything. If there is an affair, its going to get worse before it gets better. If it's a false alarm, both partners need to accept that an apology will be enough.
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