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What's worse?

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libertygrl
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Posted 01/24/13 - 2:12 AM:
Subject: What's worse?
Which is a worse crime, in your opinion: a murder in which the victim doesn't suffer, or months, even years of torture which the victim survives? Which should receive the harsher sentence in a court of law? Curious to know your thoughts.
Nihil Loc
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Posted 01/25/13 - 1:05 AM:

It's not always easy to get to the core of why a perpetrator commits a crime. Motive may have more or less bearing on the nature of the sentence depending upon the case (I don't know how our justice system works in any detail though).

I think causing suffering, with malicious intent, is worthy of a harsher court sentence. The kinds of people who commit these crimes of torture are more likely to be mentally disturbed though. But should this excuse them by any degree...?
henry quirk
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Posted 01/25/13 - 10:02 AM:

Speaking only for me: punish both equally.

Shoot 'em in the head.
libertygrl
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Posted 01/25/13 - 12:55 PM:

Sentencing is so complicated, I'm glad I'm not a judge. Presuming hypothetically that all other factors are equal though, I have a hard time weighing it out. If I were the victim I think I'd rather be killed than tortured. On the other hand, death is so final. What about the opportunity to heal and possibly find peace someday? So... I think I'm leaning in the direction of agreeing with Henry - equal sentencing for both (presuming all other factors equal).

As for shooting them in the head, used to be I supported the death penalty and would probably even agree on that point too. The main reason I oppose it now is the problem of wrongful conviction. There are other reasons too, like the problem of allowing the state to be guilty of crimes they don't permit their citizens to be guilty of. That one is fraught with gray area though. For me the risk of executing innocent people alone makes the death penalty not worth it.
thedoc
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Posted 01/25/13 - 2:31 PM:

I think the 'Malicious Intent' is the key factor here, and I do not see any reason for different sentencing for either case. The perpetrator should be removed from society as they have demonstrated that they cannot fit into civilized society. As far as the form of seperation, I really don't care as long as I don't have to pay for it.

It would be an interesting experiment to put these people in a secure area and let them organize their own society and produce some kind of goods to sell to the outside for supplies and services that they cannot provide for themselves. Would their laws and regulations be more fair and just than ours?
libertygrl
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Posted 01/25/13 - 7:06 PM:

I think the origins of the country of Australia follow along those lines somewhat?
Nihil Loc
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Posted 01/25/13 - 8:42 PM:

Actually there was something on the news a while back about prison labor used to manufacture goods at a low cost.

NYT Article wrote:
Federal Prison Industries, also known as Unicor, does not have to worry much about its overhead. It uses prisoners for labor, paying them 23 cents to $1.15 an hour. Although the company is not allowed to sell to the private sector, the law generally requires federal agencies to buy its products, even if they are not the cheapest.


Here is the link:

Private Businesses Fight Federal Prisons for Contracts
henry quirk
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Posted 01/29/13 - 2:33 PM:

"death is so final"

Yep...the ultimate deterrent.

#

"shooting them in the head"

No worries: as I say elsewhere, if the victim (or victim's *proxy) isn't capable of carrying out the sentence, then those folks shouldn't lobby for, or accept, execution.

With the current state of the population: I imagine most folks would never get executed.









*family; friends; never 'the state'
thedoc
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Posted 01/29/13 - 4:35 PM:

henry quirk wrote:

With the current state of the population: I imagine most folks would never get executed.


Pity that. The Human herd could use a bit of culling right now, I propose a 'B' Ark, and let the rest of the problem take care of itself.
henry quirk
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Posted 01/30/13 - 3:30 PM:

"...a bit of culling..."

Oh, that's been in the works since before the first protohuman fell out of a tree.

It's called 'war'.
thedoc
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Posted 01/30/13 - 11:49 PM:

henry quirk wrote:
"...a bit of culling..."

Oh, that's been in the works since before the first protohuman fell out of a tree.

It's called 'war'.


But there seems to be 'not enough' of it lately? Can't we drag China into a bloody conflict with N. Korea or Iran or aomething like that.
henry quirk
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Posted 01/31/13 - 9:59 AM:

I'm thinkin' the upcoming 'Israel versus Everyone' match will get the ball rollin'.
praxis
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Posted 02/01/13 - 5:50 PM:

libertygrl wrote:
Sentencing is so complicated, I'm glad I'm not a judge. Presuming hypothetically that all other factors are equal though, I have a hard time weighing it out. If I were the victim I think I'd rather be killed than tortured. On the other hand, death is so final. What about the opportunity to heal and possibly find peace someday? So... I think I'm leaning in the direction of agreeing with Henry - equal sentencing for both (presuming all other factors equal).

As for shooting them in the head, used to be I supported the death penalty and would probably even agree on that point too. The main reason I oppose it now is the problem of wrongful conviction. There are other reasons too, like the problem of allowing the state to be guilty of crimes they don't permit their citizens to be guilty of. That one is fraught with gray area though. For me the risk of executing innocent people alone makes the death penalty not worth it.


From what I understand, which could not be worth much, the death penalty does not serve as a good deterrent, despite what we might intuitively think. It's greatest value, practically speaking, is that of a political tool used by politician to get elected.

If my understanding is correct, the death penalty would seem to have a negative value to citizens, other than serving the value of bloodlust.

As to the OP question, I'll try to take a personal take. If someone killed or tortured someone I cared about... I wouldn't bother torturing them either way, and I wouldn't want to let them harm others.

Edited by praxis on 02/01/13 - 5:58 PM
henry quirk
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Posted 02/04/13 - 9:36 AM:

"the death penalty does not serve as a good deterrent"

In a broad, 'societal', way: you're right.

But: if you shoot a rabid dog in the head, that particular rabid dog is no longer a threat to any one.

Therefore, there's demonstrably some deterrent value to execution.
praxis
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Posted 02/04/13 - 7:44 PM:

I'd say that a deterrent has a bit less of finality to it. raised eyebrow

Edited by praxis on 02/04/13 - 10:50 PM
Monk2400
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Posted 02/04/13 - 11:37 PM:

thedoc wrote:

Pity that. The Human herd could use a bit of culling right now


Utterly disgusting POV. People who make this suggestion ought to be the first to get the bullet, immho. They ought to volunteer for immediate dispatching. But they don't do they? Nope, they suggest that its others--always others--who ought to be 'culled' like animals.

mad
thedoc
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Posted 02/04/13 - 11:42 PM:

A deterrent is ment to prevent further acts that are socially unacceptable, so perhaps if one member of a particular group exhibits unacceptable behavior, every other member of that group should be removed from society. That sounds like a good way to cull the herd. However by allowing the unacceptable segment to continue to live, the unacceptable segment could become larger that the acceptable segment of society, then what do you do? Finality is just that, - final. With exicution the troubling question of whether the person was really guilty or not, just goes away.
Monk2400
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Posted 02/04/13 - 11:43 PM:

Death penalty doesn't do anything to affect crime rates. It doesn't deter criminals, especially those whose acts are motivated by extreme poverty. I don't believe in State justice. If death had to be dealt out, I'd rather see it done by victims or their agents.

On murder vs torture, obviously torture is a more severe crime. A quick death may be a mercy. Torture is performed by demented psychopaths who thrive on pain and fear. A murder is done with the death; torture is never finished. How might such a perpetrator be punished? Only by being subjected to the same torment. A quick death is too good for them, and serveth not justice.

8)
Monk2400
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Posted 02/04/13 - 11:47 PM:

thedoc wrote:
A deterrent is ment to prevent further acts that are socially unacceptable, so perhaps if one member of a particular group exhibits unacceptable behavior, every other member of that group should be removed from society.


WTF??? Unbelievable.

mad
thedoc
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Posted 02/04/13 - 11:49 PM:

There are those that would argue that that act makes you no better than the torturer. Exicuting a murderer makes you no better than they are. However, exicution does remove those unacceptable persons from society in a rather permenant way.
thedoc
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Posted 02/04/13 - 11:53 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:


WTF??? Unbelievable.

mad


Not really, just one other extreme view to look at against all the other extreme views. I'm not saying I support such a practice, but if you look I'm sure you will find someone who does. Westborough Baptist Church comes to mind.
thedoc
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Posted 02/05/13 - 12:02 AM:

Monk2400 wrote:


Utterly disgusting POV. People who make this suggestion ought to be the first to get the bullet, immho. They ought to volunteer for immediate dispatching. But they don't do they? Nope, they suggest that its others--always others--who ought to be 'culled' like animals.

mad



Do you believe that you are anything but, just another 'Animal'?
henry quirk
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Posted 02/05/13 - 10:20 AM:

"I'd say that a deterrent has a bit less of finality to it."

As I see it: if that which deters does not do so with finality, then it -- that which is used as deterrent -- is useless.

Matter of perspective, I guess.

##

"Utterly disgusting POV. People who make this suggestion ought to be the first to get the bullet, immho."

HA!

You volunteerin' to be the trigger man?

##

"Death penalty doesn't do anything to affect crime rates. It doesn't deter criminals..."

Again: put a bullet into a mad dog's head and that particular mad dog is absolutely deterred from doing any harm to any one.

'nuff said.
praxis
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Posted 02/05/13 - 1:29 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:
On murder vs torture, obviously torture is a more severe crime.


Really? Doesn't that mean you would rather be killed than tortured?

Of course it depends on how bad the torture is, but generally speaking people will endure great suffering to live another day.
praxis
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Posted 02/05/13 - 1:34 PM:

henry quirk wrote:
"I'd say that a deterrent has a bit less of finality to it."

As I see it: if that which deters does not do so with finality, then it -- that which is used as deterrent -- is useless.


Who can say what the future holds. In any case, not useless, it just serves a purpose other than what it's alleged to.
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