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Did the Christian God create evil?

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libertygrl
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Posted 07/06/12 - 9:42 AM:
Subject: Did the Christian God create evil?
A question for thedoc, Sunlight, and anyone else who might have some thoughts on this.

Did the Christian God create evil?
SUNLIGHT
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Posted 07/06/12 - 4:12 PM:

libertygrl wrote:
A question for thedoc, Sunlight, and anyone else who might have some thoughts on this.

Did the Christian God create evil?



...................................................
good question liberty girl thumb up

well the christian GOD who is also the jewish GOD said himself that he created evil

ISAIAH 45:71:..I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
libertygrl
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Posted 07/06/12 - 4:25 PM:

Ah very good, thanks Sunlight for sharing this verse. Sunlight, what do you think about this person's interpretation of that same scripture:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html

The writer of this page says that God cannot and does not create evil even though he may punish (bring calamity) upon evil doers.
thedoc
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Posted 07/06/12 - 10:34 PM:

God created the conditions for people to do things that may be considered 'Evil', but we need a strict definition of what is 'Evil'? Much is symbolic but too many take a literal reading and get confused. Neither light nor darkness are evil except in the spiritual sense and there is the problem. One thing that must be remembered is that evil only applies to human activity, there is no evil in nature or the universe except what man brings. There are stages of the Earths development that are described as 'The Heavy Bombardment' and 'The Iron Catastrophe' that make it sound as if these events were a bad thing. There have been several mass extinctions that have cleared away old life forms and made way for new ones, the last (the extinction of the Dinosaurs) made the way for mammals and humans. How could we consider that as evil? Evil is only relative to your point of view.

Edited by thedoc on 07/06/12 - 10:39 PM
SUNLIGHT
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Posted 07/07/12 - 5:39 AM:

libertygrl wrote:
Ah very good, thanks Sunlight for sharing this verse. Sunlight, what do you think about this person's interpretation of that same scripture:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html

The writer of this page says that God cannot and does not create evil even though he may punish (bring calamity) upon evil doers.

..............................................
weii when that person says that GOD does noy create evil he contradicts that passage in which GOD says he does create evil, so when we start contradicting or altering what is written then where do we stop altering and changing ?..modern translations can also weaken or water down the original message so we will eventiually get a luke warm pale copy of the original scriptures
Thinker13
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Posted 07/07/12 - 9:26 AM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:
ISAIAH 45:71:..I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things


Hi Sunlight,

Thank you for sharing this verse.zen

Even Starjade believes that his Living White Sphere did not create evil. It is strikingly similar to the statement of the writer in the link lib has provided I assume.

There could be two obvious propositions in my opinion:

A. There is no evil--it's just human interpretation--God is all loving.

B. There is evil--God created it--to let 'play' of Maya continue.


Bhagvad Geeta, a Hindu scripture says that Godhead--the supreme personality of absolute Bramh 'descends' into this world when evil is too heavy on good; to set the wheel of Dharma in motion.
thedoc
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Posted 07/08/12 - 8:19 PM:

Or,

C. There is Evil, made by man due to God allowing man to have free-will. Man seperated himself from God and is now in the realm of dualism which includes good and evil.
libertygrl
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Posted 07/08/12 - 9:19 PM:

what about satan? satan is not man-made right?
thedoc
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Posted 07/08/12 - 9:50 PM:

libertygrl wrote:
what about satan? satan is not man-made right?


There is some room for intrepretation in all this. Was Judas really seduced by the devil? or did Jesus assign him to go to the Jewish authoraties and facilitate the completion or his role on Earth?

John 13:18
New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Identifies His Betrayer
18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me[a] has lifted up his heel against Me.’[b]

"I know whom I have chosen" sounds like Jesus sent Judas to do this.

Likewise is Satin God's enemy, or a being sent by God to test God's people? Read the begining of the book of Job, would God let his enemy freely roam around Heaven or one who was trusted to do a particular task.

If God is a creation of man then Satan is also, but if God is the eternal creator of the universe then Satan is one of God's creations.
Zenman
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Posted 07/10/12 - 1:07 AM:

I think I remember from sermons during youngsterhood that God created evil for the temptation of Man, and that it's all tied in with free will and sin and test of loyalty to God and such.

Thus (apparently), it was created for "our own good", so to speak.

Lao Tsu says that what we might think of as "evil" is a necessary part of the whole of existence--a "necessary evil", as it were (heh). And, that without it, "good" could not exist (i.e. it would have no meaning) and life would be as bland as milk toast, and not the wonderous, mysterious thing that it is.

So, according to the Tao, evil exists so good can exist.



Edited by Zenman on 07/10/12 - 1:21 AM
Thinker13
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Posted 07/10/12 - 1:52 AM:

Zenman wrote:
I think I remember from sermons during youngsterhood that God created evil for the temptation of Man, and that it's all tied in with free will and sin and test of loyalty to God and such.

Thus (apparently), it was created for "our own good", so to speak.

Lao Tsu says that what we might think of as "evil" is a necessary part of the whole of existence--a "necessary evil", as it were (heh). And, that without it, "good" could not exist (i.e. it would have no meaning) and life would be as bland as milk toast, and not the wonderous, mysterious thing that it is.

So, according to the Tao, evil exists so good can exist.




I would agree. It's how balance is lost and restored. But it does not mean that Laozi or Buddha or any other enlightened masters have not stressed upon need to 'transcend'.
SUNLIGHT
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Posted 07/10/12 - 1:58 PM:

QUOTE ZENNON:So, according to the Tao, evil exists so good can exist.
......................................................

Thats like saying SATAN exists so GOD can exist ..neither GOD nor GOOD exists because of SATAN or evilsmiling face

Thinker13
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Posted 07/11/12 - 3:52 AM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:
QUOTE ZENNON:So, according to the Tao, evil exists so good can exist.
......................................................

Thats like saying SATAN exists so GOD can exist ..neither GOD nor GOOD exists because of SATAN or evilsmiling face



Various ologies and isms catch the parts of the elephent. It's like the story of the blind men. Some of them touched trunk, some others ivory and some others legs of elephent and started describing it in detail and even wrote commentaries on it.

Zen would say that there is no good or eveil as these are mental constructs and are subjective.

SUNLIGHT
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Posted 07/11/12 - 7:42 AM:

QUOTE THINKER 13 Zen would say that there is no good or eveil as these are mental constructs and are subjective.
...................................................

And christianiy says there is .....so let the zen people stick with their belefs and let christians stay with theirs and let the future decide one way or another smiling face
KinNaoko90
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Posted 07/11/12 - 8:01 AM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:
QUOTE THINKER 13 Zen would say that there is no good or eveil as these are mental constructs and are subjective.
...................................................

And christianiy says there is .....so let the zen people stick with their belefs and let christians stay with theirs and let the future decide one way or another smiling face


Sun, a lot of people come here to share their views with each other and bounce them off each other in order to broaden their own views. At least, that's why I came here. I believe this forum was created so people could have an outlet for the topics they can't normally discuss. I don't think it was ever about imposing our beliefs on others. Therefore, Christians needn't worry about us trying to take their views from them. Nor should those of Zen beliefs worry about the same.

Sometimes topics get a bit heated and people overreact. (That's one reason I try to avoid using capital letters in my posts.) Lib really does a good job at diffusing situations when they get to that point. She also understands, as do we all, that we are all too human.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that we can and should talk about our differences and not try to hide the big elephant in the room.

-Kin heart
thedoc
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Posted 07/11/12 - 8:54 AM:

KinNaoko90 wrote:


Sun, a lot of people come here to share their views with each other and bounce them off each other in order to broaden their own views. At least, that's why I came here. I believe this forum was created so people could have an outlet for the topics they can't normally discuss. I don't think it was ever about imposing our beliefs on others. Therefore, Christians needn't worry about us trying to take their views from them. Nor should those of Zen beliefs worry about the same.

Sometimes topics get a bit heated and people overreact. (That's one reason I try to avoid using capital letters in my posts.) Lib really does a good job at diffusing situations when they get to that point. She also understands, as do we all, that we are all too human.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that we can and should talk about our differences and not try to hide the big elephant in the room.

-Kin heart



Many years ago I took a statistics course and one of the first things the professor said was that you could give a good statistician the raw data, and he could prove anything you wanted. The Bible has a lot of different verses and stories about a variety of situations, and like statistics you can find a verse that could be read to support almost any position you want. What is needed is to read the appropriate verse and intrepret it correctly. From my reading in other religions the situation is much the same, stores to illustrate a point or teach a lessons are misintrepreted, causing trouble as each person insists that their understanding is the only correct one. What we end up with is the understanding that the Bible as well as other religious writings, must be read by each person, and applying only to that person. Scriptures are written for the person who is reading them at that time, in that place.

At the most basic level all religions started with the same teaching, but years, and man, have altered and corrupted it to suit selfish ends. My advice for you is that if you want to find what you believe you must look inside yourself, what you believe is not outside. But nature, the worls, the Universe can inspire you to find that truth, you are part of the Universe, you have the Universe within you. Remember every atom in your body, and in the Earth was once inside a star. A star that blew up spreading it's atome back into the Universe, you are made of stardust.
smokinpristiformis
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Posted 07/12/12 - 12:34 AM:

I get the feeling that there's more than a few interpretations of 'god' in the bible.
Are there perhaps more than a few gods in the bible? wink

And that's 'after' censoring, obviously.

I reckon if you compare some of the names and interpretations of god with persian or mediterranean mythology, you might come up with some interesting similarities. Obviously I'm too lazy to actually check this. Or I just don't care enough. wink whee
Thinker13
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Posted 07/12/12 - 3:44 AM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:
QUOTE THINKER 13 Zen would say that there is no good or eveil as these are mental constructs and are subjective.
...................................................

And christianiy says there is .....so let the zen people stick with their belefs and let christians stay with theirs and let the future decide one way or another smiling face



Absolutely.

A simple question: How future is future? When will it be decided? Isn't it all speculations?
thedoc
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Posted 07/12/12 - 9:44 PM:

smokinpristiformis wrote:
I get the feeling that there's more than a few interpretations of 'god' in the bible.
Are there perhaps more than a few gods in the bible? wink

And that's 'after' censoring, obviously.

I reckon if you compare some of the names and interpretations of god with persian or mediterranean mythology, you might come up with some interesting similarities. Obviously I'm too lazy to actually check this. Or I just don't care enough. wink whee



It is possible to determine that God has many facets and these are described in the Bible as well as in other traditions.

There was a belief in a particular monastery that if they could discover all the names of God, (many thousands), the world would come to an end.

There was also a monastery where the monks were working a set of disks on 3 posts, and at the end of the transfer of disks from one post to the other, the world would end. It was based on a set of 50 disks of increasing size and the rule was that you could only move one disk at a time and never place a larger disk on top of a smaller one. At one time I had calculated that this would take many millions of years, (50 some if I remember correctly) working around the clock to complete the task of moving the stack of disks from one post to another.
thedoc
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Posted 07/12/12 - 9:53 PM:

Just looked it up, and I stand corrected, it is 64 gold disks and at one move per second (which is pretty quick depending on the size of the disks) it will take 585 billion years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hanoi

My estimate may have been close for 50 disks because each time you add a disk to the stack you double the time it takes.
Thinker13
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Posted 07/13/12 - 1:37 AM:

As for reincarnation theory, many people believe today in it. They think that Christianity had this concept in the beginning and it was edited-out because of some sociopolitical reasons.
SUNLIGHT
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Posted 07/15/12 - 4:05 AM:

QUOTE THINKER 13 as for reincarnation theory, many people believe today in it. They think that Christianity had this concept in the beginning and it was edited-out because of some sociopolitical reasons.
.............................................................

The first christians did NOT have the reincarnation concept in the beginning as is proved by the following passage smiling face

Hebrews 9:27

.New International Version
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
..................................

to die ONCE not to die over and over again smiling face
........................................................
Thinker13
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Posted 07/15/12 - 3:31 PM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:
QUOTE THINKER 13 as for reincarnation theory, many people believe today in it. They think that Christianity had this concept in the beginning and it was edited-out because of some sociopolitical reasons.
.............................................................

The first christians did NOT have the reincarnation concept in the beginning as is proved by the following passage smiling face

Hebrews 9:27

.New International Version
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
..................................

to die ONCE not to die over and over again smiling face
........................................................


"Born Again," is a book by Walter Semkiv, Ph D, if you get it by any chance have a looksee and lets see if you agree. peace
Thinker13
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Posted 07/16/12 - 5:45 AM:

Dhruva Leaves Home for the Forest

(1) Maitreya said: 'None of the ones headed by Sanaka [the Kumâras] or the other sons of Brahmâ: Nârada, Ribhu, Hamsa, Aruni and Yati, lived a householder's life [being married], [for] they were [vowed to the] celibate [ûrdhva retasah, sending their seed upwards]. (2) Oh slayer of enemies, Mrishâ, the wife [and sister] of [another son of Brahmâ called Irreligion or] Adharma produced the two [children] Dambha [Bluffing] and Mâyâ [Cheating], but they were taken by [a demon ruling the south-west called] Nirriti{Note:
Nritti is, goddess of destruction who lives on Tamoguna, also Alaxmi} who had no children. Nritti is deity of Mula nakshtra in Astrology (3) From those two Lobha [Greed] and Nikrita [Cunning] were born oh great soul. And from the both of them there were Krodha [Anger] and Himsâ [Malice]. From these two [also irreligiously being bound in incest] Kali and the sister called Durukti [Harsh Speech] were born. (4) Oh best of the truthful, bound to Durukti Kali produced Bhaya [Fearfulness] and Mrityu [Death] and of those two combined Yâtanâ [Excessive Pain] and Niraya [Hell] took birth. (5) I thus explained to you in short the cause of the devastation [of landing in hell because of irreligion]. Someone who hears this description three times o pure one, will lead a pious life and see the contamination of his mind being washed away.

(6) Next I will describe the dynasty famous for its virtuous activities, oh best of the Kurus, that evolved from the Manu called Svâyambhuva, who was a part of a plenary portion [Brahmâ] of the Personality of Godhead. (7) Uttânapâda and Priyavrata, the two sons of Queen Satârûpa and her husband were, as parts of [Brahmâ's plenary expansion] of the Supreme Lord Vâsudeva, there for the protection and maintenance of the world. (8) Of the two wives of Uttânapâda, Sunîti ['the one of good conduct'] and Suruci ['the one delighting'], Suruci was far more dear to the husband than the other one who had a son called Dhruva ['the immovable one']. (9) When the king one day was patting the son of Suruci named Uttama ['the one of excel'] whom he had placed on his lap, he turned away Dhruva who also tried to get on his lap. (10) Queen Suruci who was very proud [of the king's attentions] enviously spoke to Dhruva, the child of the co-wife that tried to get on his lap, in such a way that the king could hear it. (11) 'My dear child, you don't deserve to seat yourself where the king sits because, even though you were born as a son of the king, you were not born from my womb. (12) Oh child, you don't understand that, because you are not my own but from the womb of another woman, the thing you desire is out of your reach. (13) You can seat yourself on the throne of the king if you want, but only if you, by means of penance, have satisfied the Person of God and by His mercy have found a place in my womb for yourself [to be born again].'

{ This is a good narrative telling about the fight for throne in which a five year old does miraculous deedslaughing}
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