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THE FIRST HUMAN PAIR

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KinNaoko90
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#26 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/14/12 - 1:14 AM:

Thinker13 wrote:

As said earlier: The difference between my opinions and yours is--I don't claim that they're Truth.


thumb up

In my opinion there is likely no objective or universal truth. Hence one of my favorite quotes being: "Believe those who seek the truth; Doubt those who find it." or something along those lines. Whatever, I think it's in my automatic signature anyway.

My point is some are so dead set that their way (or their belief system's way) is right that they forget that other people of different belief systems and different ways hold the same view about their own. What makes one way more likely than another? In my opinion, nothing.

Some people are just like that. I may find it an undesirable trait, but obviously they do not. There's nothing wrong with that. We are all different so differences in opinions are to be expected. However, that trait does tend to get in the way of questioning, thinking, and philosophizing.
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#27 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/14/12 - 9:50 AM:

KinNaoko90 wrote:


thumb up

In my opinion there is likely no objective or universal truth. Hence one of my favorite quotes being: "Believe those who seek the truth; Doubt those who find it." or something along those lines. Whatever, I think it's in my automatic signature anyway.

My point is some are so dead set that their way (or their belief system's way) is right that they forget that other people of different belief systems and different ways hold the same view about their own. What makes one way more likely than another? In my opinion, nothing.

Some people are just like that. I may find it an undesirable trait, but obviously they do not. There's nothing wrong with that. We are all different so differences in opinions are to be expected. However, that trait does tend to get in the way of questioning, thinking, and philosophizing.




Sometimes even if that(religiosity/faith--not dogma*) gets into the way of questioning, thinking and philosophizing, that might be good for religious people. Religious and even scientific knowledge requires 'faith' and without faith there is no way out. Doubt cannot be eternal--faith is.


{ Of-course, everything written above and below is just that: my opinions. }


I was reading the other day that religious people are happier. Faith might be the cause of happiness.

But the question is: Is happiness so important?

My answer is: Yes, everyone is active knowingly or unknowingly to make him/herself happier. Sages and seers say that it's happiness--eternal--bliss, which is our true nature.

I think religions as a way of living originated because they're a means to be happier. Similarly technology and means of entertainment play a unique role in alleviating discomfort and boredom and make us happier.

The root cause of all ailments is psyche and incessant stream of thoughts which become negative when life-force-energy is not enough to sustain all activities.


*I believe that there is a certain difference in having great faith for some ideas and starting fights for your unreasonable ideas. Dogma is intolerance of thoughts of others and faith is conviction in your thoughts for search of Truth/God/higher-power.


thedoc
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#28 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/14/12 - 10:02 AM:

I would say The trait of being 'dead set in your ways' is taught at a young age. Children will grow up with parents who will say 'This is my house and we do things MY WAY'. They are than exposed to teachers who say 'I'm the teacher and I know what there is to know about this subject'. Unfortunately most young people are not strong willed enough to resist this kind of indoctrinaton. I was fortunate to discover that teachers, parents, even other kids, didn't know everything, or had been taught things that were not correct. Thinking back there have been numerous times when I was confronted by something that was wrong and several times I would relate something that I knew to be true and was called a lier by someone who didn't know. I realize that I am refering to emperical knowledge and you are refering to truth that is etherical in nature, but if people can't recognize emperical truth that can be observed and verified how can they be expected to know and understand truth of a more etherial nature that cannot be observed but only speculated about. There are few who have been taught to think for themselves and seek beyond what they have been taught, most are given 'The Sum Total' of what is known, and anything else isn't worth knowing.
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#29 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/16/12 - 5:16 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:

Sometimes even if that(religiosity/faith--not dogma*) gets into the way of questioning, thinking and philosophizing, that might be good for religious people. Religious and even scientific knowledge requires 'faith' and without faith there is no way out. Doubt cannot be eternal--faith is.


There aren't words I can use to describe my lack of faith. I am an agnostic who leans towards atheism but I am without knowledge and thus without faith. It (as of yet) can't be proven to me any scientists are correct anymore than it can be proven to me that any religion is correct.

I don't mind there being faith in the world (I wouldn't wish my skepticism on anyone: It doesn't lead to a happy life). Blind faith, however, worries me. Faith that defies any rational or empirical proof (I specify the types of proof because for me there is no 'proof' proof)... worries me.

Thinker wrote:

I was reading the other day that religious people are happier. Faith might be the cause of happiness.


I could see that being the case. I am very unhappy as one without faith, but, to me, there are other things of greater importance than my being happy.

Thinker wrote:

But the question is: Is happiness so important?


Depends on the people and the definition of happiness.

If happiness is equated to feeling euphoria or even a general "happiness" then it is very important for some people. A lot of people want to be happy and joyful.

If happiness is equated to an overall contentment with existence, then I'd have to say it's important to just about anyone. Everyone I've met wants to be at least satisfied with their life.

Thinker wrote:
My answer is: Yes, everyone is active knowingly or unknowingly to make him/herself happier. Sages and seers say that it's happiness--eternal--bliss, which is our true nature.


You're probably looking at the latter definition then. In which case, I agree with you. I could care less about being joyful. Due to certain circumstances I have been unable to feel joy since my early childhood.

I do, however, want to feel satisfied with existence. If I can't feel satisfied now, I want to work towards it. However, the way existence is, is such that not everybody can be content at the same time. I find this rather frustrating, but that's life for you.

Thinker wrote:

I think religions as a way of living originated because they're a means to be happier. Similarly technology and means of entertainment play a unique role in alleviating discomfort and boredom and make us happier.

The root cause of all ailments is psyche and incessant stream of thoughts which become negative when life-force-energy is not enough to sustain all activities.

*I believe that there is a certain difference in having great faith for some ideas and starting fights for your unreasonable ideas. Dogma is intolerance of thoughts of others and faith is conviction in your thoughts for search of Truth/God/higher-power.


1st: I agree.

2nd: I have never thought of that before. Food for thought! =D

3rd: I like that explanation and there is definitely a difference. There are many people of faith that I get along well with despite our differences of beliefs. We can talk about our thoughts on things and we are each satisfied with each others believing in what we believe in. When I feel people are "shoving it down my throat" though, I tend to go into attack mode. (My apologies if I've done that to any of you. XD)

-Kin heart
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#30 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/17/12 - 5:37 AM:

There aren't words I can use to describe my lack of faith. I am an
Kin wrote:
agnostic who leans towards atheism but I am without knowledge and thus without faith. It (as of yet) can't be proven to me any scientists are correct anymore than it can be proven to me that any religion is correct.

I don't mind there being faith in the world (I wouldn't wish my skepticism on anyone: It doesn't lead to a happy life). Blind faith, however, worries me. Faith that defies any rational or empirical proof (I specify the types of proof because for me there is no 'proof' proof)... worries me.



Some good points out there. smiling face

I agree with most of it, therefore I would like to add:

Blind faith is not faith, it's 'dogma,' a disease, a psychosis.

As for proof: We take up axioms which we consider to prove other theorems in Mathematics and Science.

There are no objective proofs. We all use what is convenient to us. If you, as a philosopher want to know the Truth, logic is one of the means. Then, there is intuition and devotion.


I could see that being the case. I am very unhappy as one without faith, but, to me, there are other things of greater importance than my being happy.



That's alright. Unless you earn it on your own it's not yours. Moreover, if projected by others you will detest it, abhor it and eventually start hating faith. In my unbiased assessment, it's forcing of beliefs by dogmatic, intolerant and ignorant people on non-believers which causes lack of faith prevail.



Depends on the people and the definition of happiness.

If happiness is equated to feeling euphoria or even a general "happiness" then it is very important for some people. A lot of people want to be happy and joyful.

If happiness is equated to an overall contentment with existence, then I'd have to say it's important to just about anyone. Everyone I've met wants to be at least satisfied with their life.


I am feeling that we are engaging in what was popularized as 'Socratic-Dialogue' by Socrates in West. These days Win Wenger has done a lot to popularize Socratic-Dialogue.

I think I believe that happiness is aim--not in the sense that you plan deadlines to be happy, but in the sense that since it's our very nature, we strive to get it by all possible means, directly or indirectly.

Kin wrote:

I do, however, want to feel satisfied with existence. If I can't feel satisfied now, I want to work towards it. However, the way existence is, is such that not everybody can be content at the same time. I find this rather frustrating, but that's life for you.


I could certainly feel for you Kin. Religions, including Buddhism which is a God-less religion emphasize on faith and happiness. I am very happy that you're so tolerant of people of faith.
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#31 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/17/12 - 8:00 AM:

QUOTE THINKER13:Religions, including Buddhism which is a God-less religion emphasize on faith and happiness. I am very happy that you're so tolerant of people of faith.
........................................................

So what exactly does buddhism which you say is a godless religion and which ephasises faith , place its faith in ?rolling eyes
KinNaoko90
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#32 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/17/12 - 8:35 AM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:

So what exactly does buddhism which you say is a godless religion and which ephasises faith , place its faith in ?rolling eyes


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddh...uddhism#Life_and_the_world

Good stuff. smiling face

Seems to me you are taking the term "faith" as automatically meaning "faith in a higher power". (Correct me if I'm wrong.) That is not the case. The most widely used definitions of faith are:

1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

Only one definition of faith mentions god on this site. And another one defines it as systems of religion. Also, religion can be defined as:

1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

Now perhaps you have your own interpretation of the terms. Many people do. But that is what I think Thinker meant by "faith". If you wish to know about Buddhism, the link I posted should help or Thinker can give you a concise explanation. smiling face
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#33 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/17/12 - 8:38 AM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:
QUOTE THINKER13:Religions, including Buddhism which is a God-less religion emphasize on faith and happiness. I am very happy that you're so tolerant of people of faith.
........................................................

So what exactly does buddhism which you say is a godless religion and which ephasises faith , place its faith in ?rolling eyes



Don't be surprised. laughing

I think it was H. G. Wales who said that about Buddha-the-Gautama.

Wiki wrote:


Depending on the religion, faith is belief in a single god or multiple gods or in the doctrines or teachings of the religion. Informal usage of faith can be quite broad, including trust or belief without proof,[1] and "faith" is often used as a substitute for "hope", "trust" or "belief".


In case of Buddhism: Teachings of Buddha, his nature of enlightenment, Karma, reincarnation and quest for Truth are things in which you have to put your faith or trust. Without that you cannot go ahead with Buddhism.

Buddhism is a philosophical religion and Buddha was a philosopher. Similarly Taoism is not that much of doctrines and book as it's a way of living.
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#34 - Quote - Permalink
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Posted 07/17/12 - 9:03 AM:

Thinker, I keep trying to "like" your posts. Then I wonder where the "like" button went and get confused... >.<

Years ago when I was trying to figure out where I stood with my beliefs, I looked into Buddhism. I don't remember much of it, but that I admired the teachings.

-Kin heart
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#35 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/17/12 - 11:50 AM:

Many years ago I read a lot about Buddhism and I was careful to read those authors who practiced it rather than those who wrote from outside Buddhism. I must disagree with thinker that Buddhism is a 'God-less' religion, granted it does not name or specify a Deity but it also does not deny the existance of God. I believe the master allows the student to discover for themselves. In the achievement of Enlightenment the Buddhist is to achive a state of 'non-duality' and this has been described as being 'one' with 'One-Mind' or the 'Universal Consciousness', or one of several other discriptives that do not define just what it is that the practitioner is to become 'one' with. My reading has left the question open, so rather than being 'God-less', it is simply not specified. Buddhism does focus on living in this world rather than prepairing for the next. The difference between Western religion and Eastern has been describes as Instead of 'thinking ourselves into a new way of living', we are 'living ourselves into a new way of thinking'.
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#36 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/17/12 - 4:11 PM:

QUOTE kinnaoko90 confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

...................................

shall we place faith another persons abiliyy to bring peace and happiness to this world since so many have failed and are ruining the world , h m m ?rolling eyes
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#37 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/17/12 - 5:58 PM:

Like the Bible Thumping, literalist preachers who have lost touch with Christianity.
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#38 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/18/12 - 5:27 AM:

thedoc wrote:
Many years ago I read a lot about Buddhism and I was careful to read those authors who practiced it rather than those who wrote from outside Buddhism. I must disagree with thinker that Buddhism is a 'God-less' religion, granted it does not name or specify a Deity but it also does not deny the existance of God. I believe the master allows the student to discover for themselves. In the achievement of Enlightenment the Buddhist is to achive a state of 'non-duality' and this has been described as being 'one' with 'One-Mind' or the 'Universal Consciousness', or one of several other discriptives that do not define just what it is that the practitioner is to become 'one' with. My reading has left the question open, so rather than being 'God-less', it is simply not specified. Buddhism does focus on living in this world rather than prepairing for the next. The difference between Western religion and Eastern has been describes as Instead of 'thinking ourselves into a new way of living', we are 'living ourselves into a new way of thinking'.



Those are some very good points thedoc and I do agree with them. smiling face

This suggests that like Kin, Buddhism is also agnostic about God. If 'one-mind-universal-consciousness-non-duality,' is accepted as 'God' it's a religion with God. But it's safe to say that like any other religion it does believe in higher powers--so do Tao and Zen.

In your quintessential expression, about religions 'West' and 'East,' I failed to understand what is what.
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#39 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/18/12 - 10:50 AM:

Thinker13 wrote:

In your quintessential expression, about religions 'West' and 'East,' I failed to understand what is what.



In Western religion (Judeo/Christian, Islam) the emphasis is on reading the 'word' as the message in the hope that people will then start acting according to the 'word'.

In Eastern religion (as exemplified by Zen Buddhism, I'm not as well read on others) the emphasis is on a persons actions and what they say as opposed to what they read, in the hope that in acting according to the teaching the person will come to think and understand according to the teaching.
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#40 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/18/12 - 12:37 PM:

thedoc wrote:



In Western religion (Judeo/Christian, Islam) the emphasis is on reading the 'word' as the message in the hope that people will then start acting according to the 'word'.

In Eastern religion (as exemplified by Zen Buddhism, I'm not as well read on others) the emphasis is on a persons actions and what they say as opposed to what they read, in the hope that in acting according to the teaching the person will come to think and understand according to the teaching.



Would it sound rather naive and preposterous, if I say that may be, the first had "doubts," because it had just started the journey on the path of "Dharma" whereas the second one had found the 'Truth,' 'the way'-therefore, they had no 'thinking' to do, just to start living in the 'way' they had found eons ago?

But it's amazing that because of my reading on 'Word' I did not really interpret as 'Bible'. I thought that primordial sounds, which yogi listens in his body, after closing ears and meditating on sounds--the omkara is the word.
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#41 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/18/12 - 1:29 PM:

QUOTE THINKER13 Would it sound rather naive and preposterous, if I say that may be, the first had "doubts," because it had just started the journey on the path of "Dharma" whereas the second one had found the 'Truth,' 'the way'-therefore, they had no 'thinking' to do, just to start living in the 'way' they had fou.nd eons ago.
...........................................................

Yes it would sound that way to a true christian who would never have DOUBTS that the journey they were taking with JESUS as their guide could lead them anywhere but to the promised land because the one who leads and guides them is the great I AMthe word that was with god in the beginning the sacred word which you know as AUM, but we know as I AM ..JESUS smiling face
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#42 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/19/12 - 8:25 AM:

Thinker13 wrote:

But it's amazing that because of my reading on 'Word' I did not really interpret as 'Bible'. I thought that primordial sounds, which yogi listens in his body, after closing ears and meditating on sounds--the omkara is the word.



In Christian teaching 'word' is often used to refer to Jesus Christ and 'The Word of God', as recorded in the Bible. 'Word' certainly has other uses in the English Language, but this was a specific use in a religious sense.
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#43 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/19/12 - 11:00 AM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:
QUOTE THINKER13 Would it sound rather naive and preposterous, if I say that may be, the first had "doubts," because it had just started the journey on the path of "Dharma" whereas the second one had found the 'Truth,' 'the way'-therefore, they had no 'thinking' to do, just to start living in the 'way' they had fou.nd eons ago.
...........................................................

Yes it would sound that way to a true christian who would never have DOUBTS that the journey they were taking with JESUS as their guide could lead them anywhere but to the promised land because the one who leads and guides them is the great I AMthe word that was with god in the beginning the sacred word which you know as AUM, but we know as I AM ..JESUS smiling face



Thank you.

A lot of blessings. May God continue to guide you on righteous path of Dharma.nod
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#44 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/20/12 - 9:04 AM:

thedoc wrote:



In Christian teaching 'word' is often used to refer to Jesus Christ and 'The Word of God', as recorded in the Bible. 'Word' certainly has other uses in the English Language, but this was a specific use in a religious sense.



lib told me about logos:word.

The word, as in the words we are reading now, come from sounds. I think that sounds were there even before any well-formed language--but then who knows.

I believe that Jesus--logos--the aum--the unstuck sound--can take form and get materialized.
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#45 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/20/12 - 9:07 AM:

QUOTE THINKER 13 thank you.

A lot of blessings. May God continue to guide you on righteous path of Dharma.
....................................................

thank you for your gracious words and may GOD bless you thumb up
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#46 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/20/12 - 9:12 AM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:
QUOTE THINKER 13 thank you.

A lot of blessings. May God continue to guide you on righteous path of Dharma.
....................................................

thank you for your gracious words and may GOD bless you thumb up



hug
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#47 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/20/12 - 12:16 PM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:
QUOTE kinnaoko90 confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

...................................

shall we place faith another persons abiliyy to bring peace and happiness to this world since so many have failed and are ruining the world , h m m ?rolling eyes


That is for the most part what Christians did with Jesus. Jesus failed overall but the faith in his lifestyle and teachings still bring peace and happiness to many. Including, I hope, yourself.

-Kin heart
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#48 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/20/12 - 12:24 PM:

KinNaoko90 wrote:


That is for the most part what Christians did with Jesus. Jesus failed overall but the faith in his lifestyle and teachings still bring peace and happiness to many. Including, I hope, yourself.

-Kin heart



I would agree that it's faith which creates this peace and happiness, rather than actual acts of the founders of the religion. This is, however, not to suggest that those founders never did anything in the first place.

To do a thought experiment: Start finding loop-holes, contradictions, puzzles, weaknesses in the characters of Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna, Rama, Shiva and others and the amount of negativity, distrust and argumentation generated might baffle you if approach is 'dogmatic,' but if you start contemplating the good qualities, good parables and surrender with devotion without any ego or presumption to any of those teachers, you might see how beatitude, bliss and peace which is eternal dawns upon you and stays with you.
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#49 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/13/12 - 8:01 AM:

thedoc wrote:
Like the Bible Thumping, literalist preachers who have lost touch with Christianity.
.
.............................................
and part of christian teachings are the apostle PAULS epistles backed up by the apostle PETER rolling eyessmiling face


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