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The Birthplace of Religions

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libertygrl
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#26 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/07/12 - 6:09 PM:

Generally speaking, rape has little to do with what a woman was wearing at the time and much to do with the compulsion of the rapist to find someone to victimize. The victim may be a child or a 90-year-old woman, whoever is around and convenient - dressing provocatively is not a pre-requisite. There is a great imbalance in perception there in my opinion (I'm not talking about you Thinker, I'm talking about in society in general.) When a rape occurs, people often look to the woman to see what she was doing that she should have done differently even when there was nothing she could have done to foresee or prevent it. Tsk tsk, that's what she gets, they say, as if anyone deserves to be raped. They've done interviews with rapists who said they had no recollection of what the woman was wearing at the time and that it had no bearing on how they selected the victim.

This is not to say that I think women (or men) should not ever take precautions to protect themselves from rape or whatever crime. Walking around alone in a high-crime neighborhood is just one of many ways that people can take unnecessary risks and end up getting hurt. All I'm saying, as an aside, just so folks know in general, is that people often leap to the erroneous conclusion that it has to do with how the woman was dressed.

Anyway, getting back to the topic, yes I agree there are such things as triggers, and responsibility is connected to everyone. This relates to the discussion I had with Monk sometime ago about the terrorists who are so incensed by the burning of the Koran that they go on torture and killing sprees. You cannot "blame" the person who burned the Koran for the homocide of others, but you can certainly note their insensitivity to a highly inflammatory situation. When I say that ultimately the perpetrator of the crime is responsible, I mean that they are the one who must ultimately be held accountable for the crime.

Edited by libertygrl on 07/07/12 - 6:36 PM
thedoc
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#27 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/07/12 - 7:08 PM:

A few years ago there was a church somewhere in the south and the Pastor announced that he was going to gather some Korans and burn them in protest of the Moslem protests and violence over the burning or damage to Korans by others, he was talked out of it. I had suggested that since his was a Christian church I would gather some Bibles and burn them in protest of his burning Korans. The one detail I would hold back was that the proper way to dispose of 'old worn out Bibles' was to burn them, but I would only reveal that to persons or groups that were legitimately concerned and needed to know.
smokinpristiformis
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#28 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/08/12 - 2:30 AM:

I just think it looks better to say:
We found secret scrolls that describe the alpha and the omega of the universe in a hidden cave near the river Eufrate in ancient Mestopotamia.

than to say:
Well, I found some scribblings here on a beer pad in a Dublin pub beneath a pint of Guinness and I rather think they're sort of mystical.


Though I'm not entirely sure. I think I'm going to ask my local druid for advice. nod
Thinker13
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#29 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/08/12 - 12:22 PM:

I have already suggested that in your example about rape it was not my intention to suggest that victim is responsible for the crime. I have not suggested that Jews were responsible for persecution or Japanese were responsible for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. No, I did not say anything to insinuate towards that, if I have been misunderstood. Taking 'half clad clothes' as an incentive or trigger might also be a mistake in a rape case if it affects sensitivity of most of the readers--but I did say that these might be triggers in certain situations. I don't think that you can disregard that. If I say that Hindus were meek and surrendered during Mogul attacks and their heads were chopped off brutally, then suggestion that they were not 'aggressive' and it was the 'only' cause of their killings--would be inappropriate--OTOH, suggesting that it might have been 'a local cause' means that their meek surrender might have been one of the causes of their great fall.


Then, about criminals---I honestly don't want to be misunderstood--so let me rephrase: It's not 'criminal' who is ultimately responsible for everything which he does--so he is not the one who is the ultimate cause of a crime. In order to pass a judgement, so that Law might help peoples live 'as a society' it might be relevant to call someone responsible and pass on the judgement--but if you sit and start analyzing--then there are myriads of causes--an endless chain of causes which points to the prime mover. Universe allows everything to happen so whole universe is responsible for everything which happens in my opinion.
SUNLIGHT
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#30 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/08/12 - 1:13 PM:

QUOTE THIKER 13:Universe allows everything to happen so whole universe is responsible for everything which happens in my opinion.
..................................................................

But that view would free man from his resposiblitis to act in a way that pleases GOD...when ever he does wrong he could blame the universe rolling eyes
Thinker13
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#31 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/08/12 - 1:32 PM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:
QUOTE THIKER 13:Universe allows everything to happen so whole universe is responsible for everything which happens in my opinion.
..................................................................

But that view would free man from his resposiblitis to act in a way that pleases GOD...when ever he does wrong he could blame the universe rolling eyes



A. Leave at God what actually pleases him. If I say what pleases him most is your accepting that it's all God's will---you will start quoting The Holy Bible.

B. Why do you think that it has to be used as an escape. It's merely my opinion so it might be wrong--but, I think that if you realize that you're not doer it liberates you--because it's 'ego' which causes the problems.


Moreover: My suggestion that universe is the ultimate cause comes from extending the chain of cause-and-effect. Humans have codified law books to judge what cause of crimes are.
libertygrl
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#32 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/08/12 - 3:01 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:
I don't think that you can disregard that.

No, I didn't disregard that at all. As I said in my post, my words about imbalance were regarding society in general and not directed toward you Thinker. I also made a point of saying that my message, as an aside, was being shared as a point of general information toward everyone. Nor did I say anything about a criminal being the ultimate cause of any crime. I also made a point of saying that responsibility is connected to everyone. I don't think you can disregard that either.
thedoc
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#33 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/08/12 - 10:56 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:
I have already suggested that in your example about rape it was not my intention to suggest that victim is responsible for the crime. I have not suggested that Jews were responsible for persecution or Japanese were responsible for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Then, about criminals---I honestly don't want to be misunderstood--so let me rephrase: It's not 'criminal' who is ultimately responsible for everything which he does--so he is not the one who is the ultimate cause of a crime.


I will agree that the victim is not responsible for a crime commited against him, but it is the criminal who has made the choice and then must take responsability. The criminal must take responsability for his choices and actions, the Universe is neutral and indifferent to the acts of individual people.

You are correct about the Jews, but wrong about the Japanese, the Japanese actions during the 30's, the attack on Pearl Harbor, and subsequent actions during the war, led the US to the decision to use the Bomb rather than a conventional invasion of Japan. Japan brought it's own distruction down on it's own head.
KinNaoko90
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#34 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/09/12 - 4:35 PM:

Thinker wrote:

B. Why do you think that it has to be used as an escape. It's merely my opinion so it might be wrong--but, I think that if you realize that you're not doer it liberates you--because it's 'ego' which causes the problems.

Moreover: My suggestion that universe is the ultimate cause comes from extending the chain of cause-and-effect. Humans have codified law books to judge what cause of crimes are.


Thinker, you prolly already know my thoughts on the matter, but the process of cause and effect is everything. thumb up No thing in this universe is responsible for anything (unless there is a higher power in which case I am all to happy to point the finger at God).

Right and wrong are completely undefinable for a being such as myself (I can't rightly speak for anyone else). If there is a right and/or wrong then something must have decided that they are as they are. This could be a higher power or a human. In which case who are we to say whether the god or human being is right or not. We are imperfect beings, prone to making mistakes, anyway. That includes any inclinations we may have as to a Higher Power.

SUN wrote:
But that view would free man from his resposiblitis to act in a way that pleases GOD...when ever he does wrong he could blame the universe rolling eyes


From his responsibilities yes. From being held accountable, not necessarily. And I for one feel there is no need to act in a way that pleases a thing that may not even exist. Especially when there are so many different versions of things that may not even exist. Heck, why don't I act in a way that pleases the devil (if there is such a thing)?

Ultimately I do not own the actions this body does, the thoughts this brain makes, nor the feelings these two things experience. The very concept of "I", to me at least, has the possibility of being an illusion. If a higher power does and still wants to punish this being for that, then said higher power will do as it pleases.

-Kin heart
Thinker13
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#35 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/10/12 - 2:03 AM:

Kin wrote:
Thinker, you prolly already know my thoughts on the matter, but the process of cause and effect is everything. thumb up No thing in this universe is responsible for anything (unless there is a higher power in which case I am all to happy to point the finger at God).

Right and wrong are completely undefinable for a being such as myself (I can't rightly speak for anyone else). If there is a right and/or wrong then something must have decided that they are as they are. This could be a higher power or a human. In which case who are we to say whether the god or human being is right or not. We are imperfect beings, prone to making mistakes, anyway. That includes any inclinations we may have as to a Higher Power.


I already know your thoughts on this subject. I don't think that cause and effect is everything because I take delight in imagining that things beyond the reach of human mind do exist. It's not known via mind but by the way of altered states of consciousness generated by mind by analogy. In a state of mind it's almost impossible to 'see what others can see,' but once another state of mind comes you start seeing many new things. Mind is a flux, which suggests that it's not a static and cause and effect is very much affected by 'access' to the sense perception. In a state of mind everything might start making sense. In another, nothing makes sense and so on.

When you say that Right and Wrong are undefinable--it's not that we are in disagreement. It's just a semantics problem. I don't say that absolute right and wrong are possible. But society, people living together, families, forums, traditions codify what they call as 'right and 'wrong' and that is indeed local right and wrong and they are temporary constants.

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