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Do We Grow In Wisdom, As We Grow.....

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KinNaoko90
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#26 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/28/12 - 3:35 PM:

Thinker wrote:

Hahaha, it's funny. You know about Leela and Maya theories of Hinduism?laughing


No actually I don't... Do explain! smiling face


Your 'functionality' doesn't get affected by the world being 'real' or 'assumption'. Does it?


It does at times. Actually I've ended up on the mental unit a couple of times due in part to philosophical issues (on top of other things). On my good days, I usually just go with the flow: "This may or may not be real, but sitting around moping and doing nothing bores me so let's act as though it is reality and just live "life" as life wills." That's my life on a good day.

On my bad days I focus so much on philosophy that it becomes self destructive as I tend to lose sight of all else.

I would say that it's all in semantics. What you call as 'assumption' is also not known---because you know(already) that nothing can be known 'for sure.' That is because of no immovable frame of reference being available for deriving standards/definitions.


I couldn't agree more. Assumption was the closest word I could find to describe it.

As an aside: If it's not personal to you: You seem to be very active for couple of weeks and then disappear in oblivion of cyberspace--is it because you post only during your college semester vacations?


I don't mind sharing about my life. Actually, I do that as part of my volunteer work.

Honestly, though, I go through phases. I'm like this with my gaming friends too. I can, for multiple months, focus on something and then I burn out and have to take time off to rekindle my spark of inspiration that allows me to go back to doing what I love. I'm worried it may happen with whatever job I end up with too. It's worth it though. And it's always nice to have places where no matter how much time has passed, you are still welcome with open arms.

-Kin heart
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#27 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/29/12 - 9:07 AM:

QUOTE kiNaoko90:I'm a little confused. Did you meet with Jesus and talk with him?
...........................
you are aq little confused ?, well you are not on your own the world is being run by people who are more than a little confused smiling face

did i talk with JESUS ?well JESUS talks with everyone of us though his teachings in the BIBLE
KinNaoko90
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#28 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/29/12 - 3:04 PM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:

you are aq little confused ?, well you are not on your own the world is being run by people who are more than a little confused smiling face

did i talk with JESUS ?well JESUS talks with everyone of us though his teachings in the BIBLE


He doesn't talk to me. Thank goodness! I'm agnostic. What I'm hearing you say, though, is that word of mouth or word of text is proof enough that there is a higher power and that said higher power had a human son. If that is the case, then what makes Jesus and God more appealing to you than Allah and Siddhartha Guatama? Heck, why not believe any writing or rumor you hear? I'm assuming you did not have a near death experience since you did not write of one. Please try to understand that all I'm doing is trying to understand.

I have read some of certain Bibles, but just enough to see how it does not go along with my views of the world. Don't get me wrong, I think the bible was a great achievement for its time. Still, all it is equates to being a book written by man. The values within the book rang true for many people. I was just not one of them.

-Kin heart
thedoc
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#29 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/29/12 - 4:08 PM:

Kin, it is important to seperate Religion from the Mythology from which it was developed. Religion is a means to control and regulate a population by an authoritarian few. Mythology is a system of stories or ideas that relate the truth about mans relationship to the world, the universe, - Just another name for God. The Bible is rich with Myth but there are other sources of myth that is just as valid. The concept that all myth had a common origin means that all religion had a common source and has just been corrupted for specific human ends. Look to mythology and you might find more truth about God than any religion could provide.
KinNaoko90
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#30 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/29/12 - 5:25 PM:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that, literally translated, "agnostic" means without knowledge.

Because I view "knowledge" as assumptions based on direct or indirect experiences and because the nature of my being is skeptical about anything and everything, I couldn't tell you if there is or isn't a god and I certainly couldn't tell you (or myself) if there are such things as truths. I am more likely to believe that gods are simply creations of humankind to keep society civilized.

In case it isn't obvious, I happen to lean heavily towards atheism even if I am agnostic. In fact, until I found the term agnostic, I classified myself as an atheist because it was the closest term to what I believed. Many people still debate with me over the definition of agnostic. All I can do is explain what I think is the literal translation.

I guess what I am trying to do is relearn how people are capable believing in anything. Skepticism is so deeply embedded within me that I have forgotten how I used to believe.
thedoc
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#31 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/29/12 - 7:54 PM:

My understanding is that Agnostic denies the ability to know of the existance of God. It is possible that you do not believe in the 'Sunday School' version of the image of God, and in this I would agree. To me God is much more that any religion can discribe. I would be curious to see what is the discription of God that you deny. Perhaps we can come to some mutual understanding of the term 'God'.
KinNaoko90
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#32 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/30/12 - 7:00 AM:

Doc, by your definition I am agnostic in almost every sense of the word. I do not know whether a god exists or not. However, I also do not know if one day I may be able to know.

I do not deny the possibility of any higher power existing (whether that higher power is a god, demon, magic, whatever). However, I want to deny that some of the higher powers of certain belief systems exist (the Christian God being one of them). I know more of Christianity than I do of any other religion and, to be honest, I extremely dislike and disapprove of it.

I lean towards atheism because there is no proof whatsoever for god. Nor are there any statements I've heard that seriously make me think there might be a god. I was curious to here if Sun had a near-death experience because I thought it might help me better understand the concept of faith.

When I say "god", though, I typically mean some sort of entity higher than myself.
thedoc
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#33 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/30/12 - 8:48 AM:

I would agree that there is no way to know that God exists, unless God chooses to provide some overt sign of God's existance. Many years ago I too doubted most of what was in the Bible but recently I have realized that the mistake was in reading it incorrectly. The Bible is Mythology which tells a truth much like a Parable or Fable. In the New testament Jesus spoke in Parables which were made up stories to illustrate a point, much like a Fable teaches a lesson. No-one really believes that Foxes and Crows speak in a human language, but the lesson is just as true.


I would like to draw a parallel between belief and Love. Assuming for now that there is a God, God could have created us with an inborn belief that was automatic, but that belief would then be meaningless, much like Love that is demanded as automatic and does not grow from inside the person. To be worthwhile belief must come from the person rather than being built in, belief without proof. However that being said I still contend that proof does not destroy faith or belief, it is just another aspect of it.

To make another comparison, in Buddhism enlightenment must be experienced, and cannot be described in words. Enlightenment is beyond words, it has been stated that "Those who know, don't say, and those who say, don't know." In the same way God is an experience that cannot be adequately expressed in words. I have been reading Joseph Campbell "Thou Art That" and one of the points made was that Religion prevents people from haveing a religious experience, everything is laid out and described so the beilever does not need to have their own experience. But this is the one thing that the symbols, Myths, and Rituals are supposed to lead the believer into, to a personal and profound experience. Just as the Zen masters do not lead the student to the masters way and experience, the church must be a guide for the individual believer to find their own way and connection to God. 'Your way is your way, and my way is my way,' anyone who claims that everyone must follow 'their way' exclusively does not really know the way. It could be said that there are many ways to God, "All roads Lead to Rome", all paths lead to God, but many religions are not a path but a roadblock.

The other problem with the Bible is that there is much that has been added, changed and corrupted for arrogant and selfish purposes of a few people, mostly control of the masses by the few.
KinNaoko90
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#34 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/30/12 - 9:52 AM:

doc, I find your views very interesting (and wise even!). One thing I do not understand though is, if a god is omniscient and acting on that all-knowingness, he then knew I'd doubt him. If a god is omnipotent and acting with his omnipotence, then I was created to doubt him. If a god is omnibenevolent and acting with his wholly-goodness, then he thought it was good for me to doubt him. If a god isn't any of these things then I don't understand how said god would be any different from a human. Still, even though I know this, many believers condemn me to hell for my doubt.

I guess it's as you said, religion is more of a roadblock than it is a path to answers.

-Kin heart
Thinker13
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#35 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/30/12 - 12:05 PM:

thedoc wrote:
The Bible is Mythology which tells a truth much like a Parable or Fable.


A. Unless you already know what 'Truth' is, there is no way to compare if what Bible tells is truth.

B. I assume that you state that because you found some liberating thoughts in Bible and now you are in possession of truth.

C. I wonder, if it was not 'liberating truth' which made you think that it's parable/fable style truth in Bible--then what was it?
KinNaoko90
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#36 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/30/12 - 12:21 PM:

On a side note... is it bad that I used to confuse the Bible with babble when I was little? laughing
thedoc
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#37 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/30/12 - 2:36 PM:

[quote=Thinker13]

A. Unless you already know what 'Truth' is, there is no way to compare if what Bible tells is truth.

By this reasoning, when you are born, you know nothing, and there fore have no previous truth to compare anything to, and can learn nothing. Any one individual can 'learn' very little in one lifetime strictly by their own experience. I for one do not have the equipment or expertise to learn about the universe or much about nature so i am dependent on others to provide truth that I cannot gain for myself. Likewise the truth I find in the Bible I accept because it has 'The ring of Truth'.
thedoc
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#38 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/30/12 - 2:59 PM:

KinNaoko90 wrote:
doc, I find your views very interesting (and wise even!). One thing I do not understand though is, if a god is omniscient and acting on that all-knowingness, he then knew I'd doubt him. If a god is omnipotent and acting with his omnipotence, then I was created to doubt him. If a god is omnibenevolent and acting with his wholly-goodness, then he thought it was good for me to doubt him. If a god isn't any of these things then I don't understand how said god would be any different from a human. Still, even though I know this, many believers condemn me to hell for my doubt.

I guess it's as you said, religion is more of a roadblock than it is a path to answers.

-Kin heart



Thankyou but sometimes I don't feel very wise, just tired.

I believe God is a lot of things but I do not presume to speak for God's motives and methods. God created the Universe and set the laws of physics in motion and part of the promise of God is that we can rely on things to work predictabily. If you are walking in the woods and a tree limb breaks off and falls and hits you, it's not because God aimed the limb to hit you, but just that at that time the limb fell due to the laws of physics that were in opperation. Could God intervene? certainly, but why should he? If God intervenes constantly, the laws of physics become unreliable and no-one would know what to expect and we could learn nothing about nature. I believe God will accomplish God's own ends in God's own time by God's own means and it's not for me to tell God how or when to do it. If you want miracles go buy some Snake-Oil and believe what you want. It all comes down to trusting that God knows what God is doing and all will work out in the end.
KinNaoko90
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#39 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/30/12 - 4:09 PM:

doc, in my twenty-two years of thought wandering I've come to realize that the wisest people I've met are often also the most tired. Maybe it's because wisdom does that to people; maybe it's not. The connection, however, remains.

Assuming there is a god, I'd have to say that what you just stated makes a lot of sense (even to this person of zero faith such as myself). I just wish more believers could see it this way and learn to accept others for who they are.

-Kin heart
Thinker13
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#40 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/30/12 - 5:10 PM:

thedoc wrote:
[quote=Thinker13]

A. Unless you already know what 'Truth' is, there is no way to compare if what Bible tells is truth.

By this reasoning, when you are born, you know nothing, and there fore have no previous truth to compare anything to, and can learn nothing. Any one individual can 'learn' very little in one lifetime strictly by their own experience. I for one do not have the equipment or expertise to learn about the universe or much about nature so i am dependent on others to provide truth that I cannot gain for myself. Likewise the truth I find in the Bible I accept because it has 'The ring of Truth'.



There is a difference between 'skills' or 'relative truths' and the absolute truth which spiritual people seek.

Absolute truth, if a thing like that exists, would liberate you from all bondage and suffering. That might be the standard to compare--if you still have suffering, want for more and feel that you are incomplete and yearn for something---be sure that Truth is eluding you yet. So, reading a book, be it any book of fables and parables, cannot liberate you unless you get an insight into yourself which liberates you.
thedoc
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#41 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/30/12 - 7:38 PM:

Thinker, where do You find the truth that liberates You?
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#42 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/01/12 - 5:46 AM:

thedoc wrote:
Thinker, where do You find the truth that liberates You?



Thinker13 wrote:

A. Unless you already know what 'Truth' is, there is no way to compare if what Bible tells is truth.


thedoc wrote:
By this reasoning, when you are born, you know nothing, and there fore have no previous truth to compare anything to, and can learn nothing. Any one individual can 'learn' very little in one lifetime strictly by their own experience. I for one do not have the equipment or expertise to learn about the universe or much about nature so i am dependent on others to provide truth that I cannot gain for myself. Likewise the truth I find in the Bible I accept because it has 'The ring of Truth'.


In the roots of suffering and bondage you find the Truth which liberates you, but then isn't it Buddhism-Zen BS? Yes it's.

I was not suggesting to wait for all experiences. In my previous posts I just wanted to tell that there is no way to check authenticity of Truths any scriptures tell apart from getting an end of suffering.
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#43 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/01/12 - 7:30 AM:

QUOTE THINKER13...I just wanted to tell that there is no way to check authenticity of Truths any scriptures tell apart from getting an end of suffering.
............................................
That can be said of any so called truths , yet millions of people belive what they are told is the truths , JESUS spoke the following words to doubting thomas ..you believe because you have seen , BLESSED are those who believe and have not seen ...for me personally BIBLE prophecywas one of the things that convinced me that the BIBLE contained words of truth..seeing something written thousands of years ago and then seeing it fulfilled today before our very eyes

KinNaoko90
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#44 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/01/12 - 8:28 AM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:

That can be said of any so called truths , yet millions of people belive what they are told is the truths , JESUS spoke the following words to doubting thomas ..you believe because you have seen , BLESSED are those who believe and have not seen ...for me personally BIBLE prophecywas one of the things that convinced me that the BIBLE contained words of truth..seeing something written thousands of years ago and then seeing it fulfilled today before our very eyes.


I don't see anything being fulfilled today according to religion. History was, the present is, and the future will be. All of this, to me, has happened according to the laws of physics. If there is a christian god who created the laws of physics, then he created me to be damned to hell.

May I ask why you capitalize some of your words? The way you choose to capitalize your words makes me feel that you think you are talking to stupid people. I find this a bit offensive. I can assure you that none of us are stupid.

-Kin heart
thedoc
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#45 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/01/12 - 11:13 AM:

KinNaoko90 wrote:

I find this a bit offensive. -Kin heart



L.O.L. one of the unfortunate side effects of reading Sun's posts.
thedoc
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#46 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/01/12 - 5:04 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:

In the roots of suffering and bondage you find the Truth which liberates you, but then isn't it Buddhism-Zen BS? Yes it's.

I was not suggesting to wait for all experiences. In my previous posts I just wanted to tell that there is no way to check authenticity of Truths any scriptures tell apart from getting an end of suffering.



If you are suggesting that suffering is the litmus test for truth, then i must disagree. Suffering is but one aspect of the Human condition and is not the end all and be all of existance. Buddhists assert that all existance is suffering and suffering comes from want, but not all are suffering all the time or even most of the time. Suffering, sadness, and pain are only occasional conditions along with pleasure, joy, and happiness. Truth comes in many forms and from many sources and the mind can recognise it when it is preceived. I knew a person who described the 'Rubaiyat' of Omar Khayyam as a discription of dispair, they were not seeing it clearly. Another described the 'Moonlight Sonata' by Beethoven as depressing, again not listening with an open mind. Truth can be found in beauty, and joy, and other pleasurable aspects of life, not just the alleviation of suffering.
Thinker13
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#47 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/02/12 - 1:44 AM:

thedoc wrote:
Suffering is but one aspect of the Human condition and is not the end all and be all of existance.


I did not say that there is nothing else but suffering in existence.

thedoc wrote:
Buddhists assert that all existance is suffering and suffering comes from want, but not all are suffering all the time or even most of the time. Suffering, sadness, and pain are only occasional conditions along with pleasure, joy, and happiness. Truth comes in many forms and from many sources and the mind can recognise it when it is perceived. I knew a person who described the 'Rubaiyat' of Omar Khayyam as a description of despair, they were not seeing it clearly. Another described the 'Moonlight Sonata' by Beethoven as depressing, again not listening with an open mind. Truth can be found in beauty, and joy, and other pleasurable aspects of life, not just the alleviation of suffering.


Let me rephrase: I said that litmus test of liberating Truth should be "release from bondage and suffering and eternal bliss." [ Here, I have added the 'eternal-bliss' but I hope you understand that emphasis is on suffering because in absence of it our natural state would be joy and peace in my opinion.]
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#48 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/02/12 - 7:12 AM:

Is 'Liberating Truth' then the only truth of value or are there other Truths that are of value in our lives?
Thinker13
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#49 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/02/12 - 7:43 AM:

thedoc wrote:
Is 'Liberating Truth' then the only truth of value or are there other Truths that are of value in our lives?



My saying it will not make it so.

Those who buy 'enlightenment' idea, believe that such Truth, such a cosmic viewpoint allows you to become one with reality, Bramh, Self or God.

But unless I myself am enlightened I cannot say that yes Truth has enlightened me.

Moreover, like masters, Buddha, Jesus or Gorakshnath--even if you're enlightened you cannot just "make" others enlightened. Though they might be already enlightened and not knowing that they're, it is their own realization of the ultimate reality which ends their sufferings for once and all.

It's not 'intellectual knowledge' of the Truth which would liberate you. It's illumination, the realization which burns your mind off which makes you flower of consciousness.

How do I tell these things? Because they seem 'logical' to me.

Relative truths do matter for our day to day existence.
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#50 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 07/02/12 - 8:23 AM:

thedoc wrote:



L.O.L. one of the unfortunate side effects of reading Sun's posts.

....................................
this from a man who has been banned 3 times from another forum and told the owner of the forum that he had no respect for her rolling eyes
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