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Do We Grow In Wisdom, As We Grow.....

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Thinker13
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Posted 06/21/12 - 12:21 PM:
Subject: Do We Grow In Wisdom, As We Grow.....
Does age relate concretely with wisdom?

Do you think that most of the persons as they grow old, grow wiser? Then, do you think that 'experiences' are most important building blocks of 'wisdom?' But it's not easy to define wisdom---so take liberty to define it as you will smiling face

On the other hand: What about smartness? It's again slightly vague to quantify this quality. But, do you think that it increases as you grow older or it decreases?

Then, what is the relaion between 'wisdom' and 'smartness'? Or there is no relation?

Or do these qualities form a bell curve by first increasing, then reaching to a peak and then decreasing with age, till death of body?
libertygrl
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Posted 06/21/12 - 1:23 PM:

Great questions thumb up

My general impression of people, on average, is that the first part of their life is largely novel experience. Once the novelty starts to wane, then the process of integration typically begins. Now, the first part of their life could mean the first twenty years, thirty years, forty... that part may vary by individual. In other words, one person may have a lot of novel experience at the beginning of their lives, and others not so much.

Some people may relatively uneventful lives and then one day, they're 37 years old and something greatly significant and life-changing happens. Then, suddenly, they're out exploring the world and seeking novel experience. So, this would be an obvious deviation from the trajectory I first suggested. Of course, there are many different ways one can possibly deviate.

I would say that ideally, one replaces youth with wisdom. It doesn't always happen that way, but it's the best one could hope for.

As for whether people grow in intelligence as they get older, I think that can depend on their values. Certain values which are dogmatic in nature can ultimately deter the growth of one's intelligence. It may also depend on their physical makeup. They may have a hereditary tendency toward brain deterioration.
Thinker13
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Posted 06/21/12 - 1:56 PM:

lib wrote:
My general impression of people, on average, is that the first part of their life is largely novel experience. Once the novelty starts to wane, then the process of integration typically begins. Now, the first part of their life could mean the first twenty years, thirty years, forty... that part may vary by individual. In other words, one person may have a lot of novel experience at the beginning of their lives, and others not so much.


It occured to me that though 'novelty' might start fading, it might not become cause of low creativity? Do you think that variety of experiences is related to personal creativity? I just wonder how this 'process of integration' looks like Yogic integration of soul and super-soul.

Some people may relatively uneventful lives and then one day, they're 37 years old and something greatly significant and life-changing happens. Then, suddenly, they're out exploring the world and seeking novel experience. So, this would be an obvious deviation from the trajectory I first suggested. Of course, there are many different ways one can possibly deviate.

I would say that ideally, one replaces youth with wisdom. It doesn't always happen that way, but it's the best one could hope for.

As for whether people grow in intelligence as they get older, I think that can depend on their values. Certain values which are dogmatic in nature can ultimately deter the growth of one's intelligence. It may also depend on their physical makeup. They may have a hereditary tendency toward brain deterioration.



It's a well proportioned reply! Since my childhood I have imagined white hairs/beard/wrinkles/slow-speed and movement with wisdom and to be honest it seems that things like sticks, old watches, politeness walk with wisdom on street. laughing
libertygrl
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Posted 06/21/12 - 3:54 PM:

Thinker wrote:
It occured to me that though 'novelty' might start fading, it might not become cause of low creativity? Do you think that variety of experiences is related to personal creativity?

I don't know, I think not necessarily. To me, creativity is about expression, and I think a person may experience things very profoundly while not knowing how to express them. Unless we are thinking on different meanings of creativity. Perhaps you could expound?
thedoc
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Posted 06/21/12 - 8:33 PM:

Smartness or intelligence is the ability to gain knowledge and how much knowledge you can acquire. To put it very simply, Intelligence allows you to know which button to push, Wisdom helps you to know when to push it. Wisdom then relates to how you use the knowledge you acquire. The ability to gain knowledge varies between individuals, in how much you can learn and how quickly. However few use their full potential so almost everyone can, with proper training, increase how much they can acquire and how quickly. I have seen cases where the educational system has impeded education rather than encouraged it. Sometimes a teacher will present a body of knowledge and to forstall a lot of questions about further possibilities, will present it as the sum total of what is known. The student comes away with the idea that they have exhausted the subject and give it no further thought. I do not believe that an individuals intelligence will increase or decrease with age, but the acquisition of knowledge can slow down or stop due to dogma or narrowmindedness. Any one who has the desire can learn at any age, though the ability may slow down a bit.
Thinker13
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Posted 06/22/12 - 1:39 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

I don't know, I think not necessarily. To me, creativity is about expression, and I think a person may experience things very profoundly while not knowing how to express them. Unless we are thinking on different meanings of creativity. Perhaps you could expound?


This 'knowing' might be related to 'gift' or 'craftsmanship?' But do you think that 'knowing how to express' would apply only after enough of experiences have been there.
Thinker13
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Posted 06/22/12 - 1:41 PM:

thedoc wrote:
Smartness or intelligence is the ability to gain knowledge and how much knowledge you can acquire. To put it very simply, Intelligence allows you to know which button to push, Wisdom helps you to know when to push it. Wisdom then relates to how you use the knowledge you acquire. The ability to gain knowledge varies between individuals, in how much you can learn and how quickly. However few use their full potential so almost everyone can, with proper training, increase how much they can acquire and how quickly. I have seen cases where the educational system has impeded education rather than encouraged it. Sometimes a teacher will present a body of knowledge and to forstall a lot of questions about further possibilities, will present it as the sum total of what is known. The student comes away with the idea that they have exhausted the subject and give it no further thought. I do not believe that an individuals intelligence will increase or decrease with age, but the acquisition of knowledge can slow down or stop due to dogma or narrowmindedness. Any one who has the desire can learn at any age, though the ability may slow down a bit.



You provide a lot of fodder for my mind here. whee
SUNLIGHT
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Posted 06/24/12 - 6:10 AM:

QUOTE THINKER13 grino you think that most of the persons as they grow old, grow wiser?
...................................................................

Some do and some dont :but lets take the HUMAN RACE as a whole ,, after nearly 6,000 years and looking at the world set up today , have we grown wiser or more foolish ?rolling eyes

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Posted 06/24/12 - 6:20 AM:

QUOTE THINKER13grinoes age relate concretely with wisdom?
............................................................
It depends on whether you mean mean mr worldly wiseman wisdom or GODLY wisdom rolling eyessmiling face



Thinker13
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Posted 06/24/12 - 8:23 AM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:
QUOTE THINKER13 grino you think that most of the persons as they grow old, grow wiser?
...................................................................

Some do and some dont :but lets take the HUMAN RACE as a whole ,, after nearly 6,000 years and looking at the world set up today , have we grown wiser or more foolish ?rolling eyes




You answer it.
Thinker13
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Posted 06/24/12 - 8:25 AM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:
QUOTE THINKER13grinoes age relate concretely with wisdom?
............................................................
It depends on whether you mean mean mr worldly wiseman wisdom or GODLY wisdom rolling eyessmiling face






Please go ahead and define Mr. Worldly Wiseman and Godly Wisdom and then try to answer the original question. I did suggest that you could take liberty in defining the terms your way. I think that you could take liberty to define 'smartness' as well.nod
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Posted 06/26/12 - 9:01 AM:

QUOTE THINKER13;
define smartness as well
...................................
smartness in the sight of GOD is to pay atteion to and believe his testimonoies....i dont think the world today is SMART...of course smartness as the world uses the term could refer to a person being well dressed . there are sevearal other definitions .
libertygrl
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Posted 06/26/12 - 11:33 AM:

Thinker13 wrote:
This 'knowing' might be related to 'gift' or 'craftsmanship?'

hmmm i'm not sure i follow

But do you think that 'knowing how to express' would apply only after enough of experiences have been there.

i don't think there's always a correlation between experiences and the ability to express. some have a great ability to express (maybe this is the gift or craftsmanship to which you refer?), and it may be that they express their experiences or on the other hand, they express things that they imagine to be possible. take leonardo davinci, for example - how much of what he expressed would you say related to his actual experience?
Thinker13
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Posted 06/26/12 - 1:12 PM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:
QUOTE THINKER13;
define smartness as well
...................................
smartness in the sight of GOD is to pay atteion to and believe his testimonoies....i dont think the world today is SMART...of course smartness as the world uses the term could refer to a person being well dressed . there are sevearal other definitions .



May I know how you know about 'sight of God?' If you are not God, how do you know about his sight?laughing

If you're God then lets discuss further how it feels to be 'Godlike'.wink
Thinker13
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Posted 06/26/12 - 1:26 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

hmmm i'm not sure i follow


i don't think there's always a correlation between experiences and the ability to express. some have a great ability to express (maybe this is the gift or craftsmanship to which you refer?), and it may be that they express their experiences or on the other hand, they express things that they imagine to be possible. take leonardo davinci, for example - how much of what he expressed would you say related to his actual experience?



By 'craftsmanship' I meant mastery acquired by polishing. In the original context, it would be different from "gift" in the sense that it's acquired by practicing using your gift.


how much of what he expressed would you say related to his actual experience?

I would say: Most of it. Take for example--his ability to draw Monalisa. I am not an expert in painting but you're, so I would give my account: I think, he could draw such a great painting because of his ability to copy nature and that was because he had mastered it and he was able to 'feel' more than an average individual does. He could feel more because of the gift but this 'sensing' more than others made him capable of experiencing more than others.

But otherwise: If you consider another individual 'Y' and say he had more 'experiences' than Leonardo--how could you say that? If he met more people than Leonardo--he couldn't study them more than Leonardo did because even if Leonardo met two persons he was able to observe more of them because of his high sensitivity.

Clearly: In this regard I consider 'intensity' of experiences to be more important than their 'frequency'.

So, you might say that Leonardo had [more of experiences] rather than saying that he had {more experiences}.
libertygrl
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Posted 06/27/12 - 12:03 AM:

what about his so-called prophecies? would you say those are based on experience?

or, here's a related question - is imagination the same as experience?
Thinker13
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Posted 06/27/12 - 2:52 AM:

lib wrote:
what about his so-called prophecies? would you say those are based on experience?


A. Are there any Vincian prophecies? I am not aware of those.

B. Take Nostradamus for example: His or any other genuine seer's prophecies might be based on being able to read through given data--which is circumstances and calculations along with intuition---but in certain cases, where ESP is involved, it's because of the "gift." What gave rise to gift--maybe work done to enhance ESP in this or earlier incarnations.

lib wrote:
or, here's a related question - is imagination the same as experience?


Imagination in my experience is a faculty and it's not an experience. Imagination is seeing things in your mind's eye. It's like calculating but when you see things in your mind's eye---they are affected by past experiences as well as by the stimuli in your surroundings. Imagination; when used, ends up giving you new experiences but it's not an experience in itself.
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Posted 06/27/12 - 5:29 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:
Does age relate concretely with wisdom?

Do you think that most of the persons as they grow old, grow wiser? Then, do you think that 'experiences' are most important building blocks of 'wisdom?' But it's not easy to define wisdom---so take liberty to define it as you will smiling face

On the other hand: What about smartness? It's again slightly vague to quantify this quality. But, do you think that it increases as you grow older or it decreases?

Then, what is the relaion between 'wisdom' and 'smartness'? Or there is no relation?

Or do these qualities form a bell curve by first increasing, then reaching to a peak and then decreasing with age, till death of body?


I think I'm going to give my answer for your second question first. "Smartness", as you put it, can be divided into three categories: "knowledge", "logic", and "common sense" (common sense seems pretty darn rare to me). To me, "knowledge" can be defined as assumptions based on direct or indirect experiences. "Logic" takes things a step further and uses prior knowledge to deduce and infer new knowledge. "Common Sense" is the final step where one applies "knowledge" and "logic" to real and current situations.

As for wisdom, I'd have to agree that to an extent it increases with age. Depending on the individual and the circumstances, one may gain wisdom as soon as they can think for themselves (a more difficult task than one may assume) and lose wisdom at any age.

I rather like Socrates' definition of wisdom, which can be inferred from a famous quote of his. I believe it was something along the lines of: "I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing." I believe Socrates was right (in a paradoxical way). We are human beings not gods, how can we say we know anything? I sure as heck don't. Heck, I don't even know:
1) if there is such a thing as a god
2) if this world is reality
3) if I am even a sentient being or if I am just a type of camera recording a sentient beings sensory perceptions and thoughts

So to me, having wisdom can be defined as having an understanding of the inferiority of our all-too-human minds and acting upon wisdom can be defined as being open to possibilities.

Lastly, as to the relationship between wisdom and smartness... there is none that I can see. (Sorry for going out of order.)
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Posted 06/28/12 - 6:29 AM:

QUOTE THINKER13:May I know how you know about 'sight of God?' If you are not God,
..............................
Well GOD spent nearly 1500 years telling us what is or is not acceptable in his SIGHT and JESUS spent three and a half yeas telling us about GOD so if after all that effort we dont know what is acceptable in GODS sight then we are incapable of benefiting from any words of truth that come from him.....having ears do we not hear... h m m ?rolling eyes
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Posted 06/28/12 - 7:29 AM:

Sunlight,

I'm a little confused. Did you meet with Jesus and talk with him? How about your God? I know some Christians and people of other faiths have had near death experiences in which they believe they see "the light". I was just curious if something like this had happened to you. Otherwise I'm afraid I fail to see the logic in your statement. (Not saying there isn't any, I just don't see it.)

What I'm hearing you say is that because others have talked and preached about your God and Jesus, it's worth believing. I find this interesting because, as a skeptic, I honestly have very few beliefs in anything. As I stated before, I don't know whether a god exists or not. Heck I don't even know if my own "family" exists or not. It gets a bit confusing for me when other people talk as though there are "facts" while I know of none. kooky

I'm not trying to offend you, by the way. I'm just honestly curious.

-Kin heart
Thinker13
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Posted 06/28/12 - 11:20 AM:

SUNLIGHT wrote:
QUOTE THINKER13:May I know how you know about 'sight of God?' If you are not God,
..............................
Well GOD spent nearly 1500 years telling us what is or is not acceptable in his SIGHT and JESUS spent three and a half yeas telling us about GOD so if after all that effort we dont know what is acceptable in GODS sight then we are incapable of benefiting from any words of truth that come from him.....having ears do we not hear... h m m ?rolling eyes



1.As an aside: Why do you use 'h m m' for 'hmm.?'

[ I guess that is an old question but I did not receive any answer.]

2. I am not a Christian---so God was not speaking for me.
3. Even you were not there all those 1500 years!

You were fed that all by your family.


Thinker13
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Posted 06/28/12 - 11:25 AM:

kin wrote:
To me, "knowledge" can be defined as assumptions based on direct or indirect experiences


Assumptions? How come?

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Posted 06/28/12 - 11:52 AM:

Thinker wrote:


Assumptions? How come?



Because personally, I am not familiar with any "certain facts". Therefore, to me, all knowledge is based on previous experiences. This doesn't mean that it's true. All it does mean is that it's what we have available to us to go on. For example, I want to assume that this world is reality and that my family and friends are real too. But for me, all that is would still be an assumption. I have no undeniable proof that they are real.

Sorry if it's a bit confusing. As a skeptic, it was very hard for me to define knowledge at all. I felt it better to give it a shot then simply saying "there is no such thing as knowledge" (I don't know if that's true either. laughing )
Thinker13
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Posted 06/28/12 - 12:35 PM:

quote]Because personally, I am not familiar with any "certain facts". Therefore, to me, all knowledge is based on previous experiences. This doesn't mean that it's true. All it does mean is that it's what we have available to us to go on. For example, I want to assume that this world is reality and that my family and friends are real too. But for me, all that is would still be an assumption. I have no undeniable proof that they are real.[/quote]

Hahaha, it's funny. You know about Leela and Maya theories of Hinduism?laughing

Your 'functionality' doesn't get affected by the world being 'real' or 'assumption'. Does it?

I would say that it's all in semantics. What you call as 'assumption' is also not known---because you know(already) that nothing can be known 'for sure.' That is because of no immovable frame of reference being available for deriving standards/definitions.

kin wrote:

Sorry if it's a bit confusing. As a skeptic, it was very hard for me to define knowledge at all. I felt it better to give it a shot then simply saying "there is no such thing as knowledge" (I don't know if that's true either. )


It's not confusing--we have had many discussions on these lines.


As an aside: If it's not personal to you: You seem to be very active for couple of weeks and then disappear in oblivion of cyberspace--is it because you post only during your college semester vacations?
thedoc
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Posted 06/28/12 - 2:02 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:


A. Are there any Vincian prophecies? I am not aware of those.




Da Vinci made a number sketches and drawings of machines that were well beyond the technical capabilities of the time but have proven to be viable concepts.
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