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Why Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely?

Comments on Why Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely?

Thinker13
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#26 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 05/04/12 - 3:16 AM:

Good to see you again.


JrnymnX wrote:

I think the good doctor is trying to sell a book.


Maybe, but why not go against an English saying, instead of going for it and then doing painstaking efforts and research for supporting it. Does it support Illuminati? If yes, how so?


Jrnymnx wrote:

I feel that while it may be somewhat accurate to say the neuro-chemical 'ends' are similar ignoring the 'means' borders on deliberate obfuscation. One is a natural process that is a reward for success, the other is an artificial reward for nothing.


I am sorry, but I could not understand. Care to elaborate?

Jrnymnx wrote:

The doctor points out that power makes people smarter whereas from all accounts I've come across cocaine only makes people think they're smarter.


Not sure about Cocaine but I think many drugs really make people smarter, marijuana for example; temporarily, but point is not about analogy of Cocaine or Marijuana, it's about the temporary smartness conferred by power, this very power becomes stagnant and cripples decision making when in excess.
JrnymnX
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#27 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 05/06/12 - 1:05 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:
I am sorry, but I could not understand. Care to elaborate?

Sure, what part don't you understand.

Thinker13 wrote:
Not sure about Cocaine but I think many drugs really make people smarter, marijuana for example;

Marijuana does not make you smarter. It is not even worthy of a 'does too,' 'does not' debate.

Thinker13 wrote:
...it's about the temporary smartness conferred by power...

On a cosmic scale everything is temporary so in that regard you must be correct, but I have the suspicion that you are suggesting that the smartness confered by power is much more fleeting than the power itself for which you offer as proof...?

Thinker13 wrote:
...this very power becomes stagnant and cripples decision making when in excess.

You forgot the "[citation needed]". Don't wait for the good doctor's book to come out, you'll probably do better finding support for your feelings from a physicist than a neuropsychologist anyways, at least in this instance.
Thinker13
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#28 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 05/06/12 - 3:37 PM:

Jrnymnx wrote:
I feel that while it may be somewhat accurate to say the neuro-chemical 'ends' are similar ignoring the 'means' borders on deliberate obfuscation. One is a natural process that is a reward for success, the other is an artificial reward for nothing.



Thinker13 wrote:
I am sorry, but I could not understand. Care to elaborate?


Jrnymnx wrote:
Sure, what part don't you understand.


I could not get the meaning of the entire first sentence, quoted above--that is why I failed to understand second sentence as well!

Thinker13 wrote:

Not sure about Cocaine but I think many drugs really make people smarter, marijuana for example


Jrnymnx wrote:
Marijuana does not make you smarter. It is not even worthy of a 'does too,' 'does not' debate.


I am not so sure! See here and here

Wikipedia wrote:

Memory and intelligence

A 2002 longitudinal study published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal concluded that "marijuana does not have a long-term negative impact on global intelligence," and that "current marijuana use had a negative effect on global IQ score only in subjects who smoked 5 or more joints per week." The study, which monitored subjects since birth, examined IQ scores before, during and after cessation of regular marijuana use. It found current light users and former users showed average IQ gains of 5.8 and 3.5 respectively, compared to an IQ gain of 2.6 for those who had never used cannabis.[93] The study did however show an average IQ decrease of 4.1 for heavy users.[93]



Jrnymnx wrote:

On a cosmic scale everything is temporary so in that regard you must be correct, but I have the suspicion that you are suggesting that the smartness confered by power is much more fleeting than the power itself for which you offer as proof...?


Does it matter if smartness conferred by power is more fleeting than power?

Jrnymnx wrote:

You forgot the "[citation needed]". Don't wait for the good doctor's book to come out, you'll probably do better finding support for your feelings from a physicist than a neuropsychologist anyways, at least in this instance.


Yes, I did. Are you implying that Physicist would go for 'power corrupts' or otherwise?


libertygrl
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#29 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 05/06/12 - 7:28 PM:

having been a stoner myself, and having spent much time with a multitude of stoners, i would say based on my experience that marijuana does not make most people smarter. if it's true that it makes anyone smarter, i would predict that it's a small minority of individuals who already had tremendous cognitive skill to begin with.

it can be a mind-opener, sure. people deal with that experience in different ways. for some people it can be a source of great anxiety and paranoia. others experience the novelty of it and quickly forget about it after the experience wears off.

the biggest problem with marijuana is that it most often bestows upon you the blessed condition of C.R.S. (can't remember shit). the large majority of people who are stoned, in my experience, sit around staring at the television in what i would even venture to call a blissfully retarded state. any time we had a large group of people waiting to go somewhere, it was always the stoners who were late because they got lost and distracted somewhere along the way and could barely function well enough to get out the front door, thus inspiring the oft-used expression, "fucking stoners!!"

a few people that i know who are stoners and who are also great thinkers know how to use it well as a tool and i would most definitely say these are the exception rather than the rule. i don't feel like marijuana made me any smarter, while i do feel that other drugs did, such as ecstasy and psylocibin (mushrooms).

as JmX said, there are also some drugs that make you feel smarter while you're high, but after the drug wears off, the effect wears off. cocaine may be one such drug but i wouldn't know about that.
Thinker13
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#30 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 05/06/12 - 8:46 PM:

libertygrl wrote:
having been a stoner myself, and having spent much time with a multitude of stoners, i would say based on my experience that marijuana does not make most people smarter. if it's true that it makes anyone smarter, i would predict that it's a small minority of individuals who already had tremendous cognitive skill to begin with.


Experience might not be a great judge in this regard, especially if people who used it did just for recreation, were not careful to isolate effects from other drugs and so and so on.

lib wrote:

it can be a mind-opener, sure. people deal with that experience in different ways. for some people it can be a source of great anxiety and paranoia. others experience the novelty of it and quickly forget about it after the experience wears off.



lib wrote:

the biggest problem with marijuana is that it most often bestows upon you the blessed condition of C.R.S. (can't remember shit). the large majority of people who are stoned, in my experience, sit around staring at the television in what i would even venture to call a blissfully retarded state. any time we had a large group of people waiting to go somewhere, it was always the stoners who were late because they got lost and distracted somewhere along the way and could barely function well enough to get out the front door, thus inspiring the oft-used expression, "fucking stoners!!"


Extremes might be like this, but certain minority of people I have interacted with ( and my limited experience with it) suggest that they remember everything and could vividly describe it later on. The rush of ideas from memory bank does cause distorted sense of passage of time, i. e. people feel that much time has passed where just a few seconds have passed actually. Excess of anything, especially of THC will make you have different experiences, moreover, if you and your friends tried just Cannabis Indica and not Sativa, there is very little of chance of having gotten a 'cerebral-high'.

lib wrote:

a few people that i know who are stoners and who are also great thinkers know how to use it well as a tool and i would most definitely say these are the exception rather than the rule. i don't feel like marijuana made me any smarter, while i do feel that other drugs did, such as ecstasy and psylocibin (mushrooms).

as JmX said, there are also some drugs that make you feel smarter while you're high, but after the drug wears off, the effect wears off. cocaine may be one such drug but i wouldn't know about that.


All I stated was 'they might make you smarter temporarily' in that their effect could be like that of power, which is not to suggest that durations in case of drugs and power are comparable for measuring smartness.
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#31 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 05/06/12 - 8:55 PM:

Thinker wrote:
All I stated was 'they might make you smarter temporarily' in that their effect could be like that of power, which is not to suggest that durations in case of drugs and power are comparable for measuring smartness.

oh i see, well temporary smartness is certainly possible.

Thinker wrote:
Experience might not be a great judge in this regard, especially if people who used it did just for recreation, were not careful to isolate effects from other drugs and so and so on.

true, well, i have known a great number of people who smoked it every day, who did not use other drugs, and who did not seem to have any special cognitive prowess because of it. i personally was not able to remember anything from while i was stoned, even though i may have (sometimes) had very profound and intense thoughts while i was high.
Thinker13
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#32 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 05/06/12 - 10:11 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

true, well, i have known a great number of people who smoked it every day, who did not use other drugs, and who did not seem to have any special cognitive prowess because of it. i personally was not able to remember anything from while i was stoned, even though i may have (sometimes) had very profound and intense thoughts while i was high.


May be you used just Indica and not Sativa.
JrnymnX
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#33 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 05/08/12 - 6:15 AM:

Thinker13 - I could not get the meaning of the entire first sentence

The doctor is asserting that power and cocaine have a similar effect on the brain's reward system. Power results in increased dopamine, cocaine artificially increases the amount of dopamine by blocking its reabsorption.
I'm too short on time to go on further, hope that clears it up


Thinker13 - Are you implying that Physicist would go for 'power corrupts' or otherwise?

I'm implying that your position has more in common with the second law of thermal dynamics that what will be in the good doctor's book.smiling face
Thinker13
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#34 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 05/08/12 - 6:48 AM:

Jrnymnx wrote:
I feel that while it may be somewhat accurate to say the neuro-chemical 'ends' are similar ignoring the 'means' borders on deliberate obfuscation. One is a natural process that is a reward for success, the other is an artificial reward for nothing.




Jrnymnx wrote:

Thinker13 wrote:
- I could not get the meaning of the entire first sentence


The doctor is asserting that power and cocaine have a similar effect on the brain's reward system. Power results in increased dopamine, cocaine artificially increases the amount of dopamine by blocking its reabsorption.
I'm too short on time to go on further, hope that clears it up


Now, I understand what you wanted to say. Thanks for the explication, but I don't think that there is any obfuscation in assertions of researchers. All they're trying to do is to give an analogy.

Jrnymnx wrote:
Thinker13 - Are you implying that Physicist would go for 'power corrupts' or otherwise?

I'm implying that your position has more in common with the second law of thermal dynamics that what will be in the good doctor's book.


I got you (perhaps). laughing


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JrnymnX
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#35 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 05/09/12 - 5:35 AM:

Thinker13 wrote:
I don't think that there is any obfuscation in assertions of researchers.


So all someone has to do to be above reproach is flash their pretty little doctorate? I thought you were arguing that power corrupts. Shouldn't you be the skeptical one? grin
Thinker13
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#36 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 05/09/12 - 9:16 AM:

JrnymnX wrote:


So all someone has to do to be above reproach is flash their pretty little doctorate? I thought you were arguing that power corrupts. Shouldn't you be the skeptical one? grin



They are not above reproach, neither am I, nor you.

I am still open to the proof in support of 'power does not corrupt' but I find none. My feelings, my reasoning, the piece of research; all point to the same, still I am skeptical, but you have not come up with a substantial argument against the proposition.
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