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Will Some of Us Live Forever?

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Thinker13
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Posted 03/13/12 - 3:19 AM:
Subject: Will Some of Us Live Forever?
Will some people alive today never die?

I came across this question while going through this article "Ten Good Reasons to Get Out of Bed in the Morning," by Robert Anton Wilson in book Illuminati Papers. ( I think I am reading 1996 edition.) I am surprised by the inaccuracy of estimates in the fields of Space-Migration and Life-Extension. It's not just Robert Anton Wilson, Stanley Kubrick and Arthur C. Clarke, but a substantial group of scientists, writers and visionaries alive and dead who have predicted about Space-Migration and Life-Extension in a manner which seems Pollyanna in the light of present Life-Expectancy across the globe.


The article by Robert Anton Wilson is most optimistic I have ever come across on the subject of Life-Extension. There are many thinkers who suggest that part of life's beauty lies in its imperfection; in the fact that we wrap it all up and go away; that we all succumb to the death. And yes, it's reasonable to mention here that my personal opinion ( which would remain personal no matter how often I make it public, because that which is private might become public because of publication, but it remains personal if it is personal till the end of the times! It's possible that many people start agreeing with you, in which case, your personal opinion becomes opinion of many but that also does not alienate your opinion from you. The verdict is: your personal opinion remains personal no matter how public you make it!) is that "There is no death for me." Which means that I try to mean something else by word 'Death' than the ordinary sense and that 'Death' is not possible as an experience. However, as far as physical decay and aging is considered; I am in alignment with most others that I am aging like everyone else and there would be end of this body as there was a beginning. I am critical of die-hard critics of Life-Extension, because even when they assert that it's the quality of the years and not the number that matters; I feel that for those who feel that they're engaged in something worthy and want to continue doing it forever it should matter alright. Looking at the facts however suggests that even if end is inevitable, extending it and giving a stretch of say 20, 30 or 100 more years is not impossible. It's reasonable to suggest that those who are most resourceful will be the first to get life-extension. But I find that all predictions about the life-extension applications becoming reality of the day have been as flagrantly inaccurate and even grossly unscientific hitherto as estimates about Space-Migration. This makes me slightly skeptic about such predictions. It's not that I am given unto the belief that my skepticism can change society; neither do I believe that I am doing anything very significant for decreasing the count of wrong predictions. But only if it entertains you in the slightest :




Let us look at excerpts from the article:

Robert Anton Wilson wrote:
Four. None of these future possibilities is reserved for die unborn. There are excellent reasons to believe that all the life-expectancy tables used by insurance companies are already obsolete. You will probably live a lot longer tiian you expect.
In the very first article that I wrote on life extension (San Francisco Phoenix, 1973), I quoted the latest estimate of Dr. Johan Bjorksten, who spoke at the time of extending human lifespan to 140 years. This year, Dr. Bjorksten predicts diat humans will soon be able to live 800 years. Paul Segall, of the University of California at Berkeley, who has experimentally stopped the aging process in laboratory animals, hopes that his work will extend the human lifespan to 400 or 500 years before 1990. Dr. Robert Phedra puts the number even higher; he says that we can begin aiming to extend human lifespan to 1,000 years.



I don't know what Dr. Bjorksten meant by the word 'soon', but I see no evidence of his predictions getting materialized. If I am wrong then there are people who are very old and very powerful ( as they were the first one to get Life-Extension!) and they're hidden for some reasons!



Robert Anton Wilson wrote:

Look at it this way:


life expectancy in Shakespeare's day was about 30 years. (That's why Shakespeare wrote of himself so often as aging and declining in sonnets written when he was only in his early 30s.) In England, 100 years ago, life expectancy was still less than 40 years among members of the working class. It was 60 around the turn of the century in this country. It is now 72. Even if Bjorksten, Segall, Phedra, and the hundreds of other longevity researchers are overly optimistic, even if we can raise lifespan only 50 per cent in this generation, that still means that you will probably live at least 30 years past the projected 72.
In the meantime, the research continues. Within even a 30-year bonus of extra years, the leap into the hundreds of years is likely to occur. For instance, if you are in your 20s now, you expect to die around 2030. Add 30 years to that, and you will live to 2060. How many more years will science be able to give you by then? Even assuming that those re-searchers currendy speaking of life exten-sions of hundreds of years are doing so too soon, in 2060 an increase of 100 years will be a conservative projection. So you can live on to 2160. And where will the life-extension sciences be by then?



It seems quite logical but are things really taking shape? That's to be seen in my opinion. I think, it's not necessary to wait till 2030 to see if it's working at all. If it's working then the old and powerful should live longer than the old and powerful of earlier ages used to live. Is that happening already? It's up to you to decide.



By the gradual increment of life-extension breakthroughs we have been discussing, it is thinkable that some people alive today will never die. We are the first generation in history to have immortality as a scientific, not metaphysical, possibility. Every decade you survive increases the chances that you will live until the crossover point where longevity blends into immortality.
In Osborn Segerberg, Jr.'s The Immortality Factor, some recent estimates of that crossover point are quoted. Arthur Clarke, in 1961, set the point late in the 21st century. A poll of 82 life-extension researchers in 1964 showed growing optimism and a prediction that chemical control of aging would be achieved by early in the 21st century. Another poll in 1969 found a spectrum of predictions ranging from 2017 (the highest estimate) to 1993 (the lowest). As Dr. Timothy Leary points out in Terra II, the largest amount of research with the most encouraging results has taken place since that poll.



As said earlier, my opinion does not matter much; but as I am opening my mouth anyway, I should suggest that I don't see any evidence around me about Life-Extension becoming public by 2017. This makes most of the predictions in the passage above wrong. Clarke estimated it to be late in 21st century and that might be true but that is also to be seen and I don't know if any of us will be alive to see that or if that matters at all!



Robert Anton Wilson wrote:
In 1976, F. M. Esfandiary predicted the crossover to longevity would happen by 2000. In 1980, Dr. Alvin Silverstein pre-dicted it by 1990. Many interested citizens, following the lead of physicist R. C. W. Ettinger, who wrote The Prospect of Immortality back in 1964, have formed cryonics societies to freeze their bodies at clinical death, in the belief that future science will be able to revive them and give them a second chance. Although this method of preserving the body is available now only to the affluent, many believe that cryonic preservation of the brain, which costs as little as a few hundred dollars per year, gives an equally good chance of a person's revival—through cloning.



Do you see the pattern? Later the date of prediction of this crossover to longevity, more the chances that it's inaccurate. And what about Cryonics? I read about Walt Disney case and it might be very reasonable but are these two not very different things? Extending life and bringing it back? May be I am not making sense. So be it!


I am not very familiar with the most advanced theories about Life-Extension and I am eager to hear from you about those. I would also love to ask you if you really want to live longer. And if you want to live longer what you would do with your life ( Especially things which you're not doing already!).


henry quirk
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Posted 03/13/12 - 8:52 AM:

I intend to live forever: dance on the graves of enemies, prospect and mine asteroids in the orbit of Neptune, and -- eventually -- visit another star.

I'll probably be nothing more than a brain in a jar (heavily armored, implanted in a Terminator-style robot frame), but I ain't going (to) nowhere anytime soon.
Thinker13
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Posted 03/13/12 - 11:05 AM:

henry quirk wrote:
I intend to live forever: dance on the graves of enemies, prospect and mine asteroids in the orbit of Neptune, and -- eventually -- visit another star.

I'll probably be nothing more than a brain in a jar (heavily armored, implanted in a Terminator-style robot frame), but I ain't going (to) nowhere anytime soon.


nodthumb up
libertygrl
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Posted 03/15/12 - 10:11 PM:

i feel i'm an inextricable piece of a universe that never dies. so, although i may change shape and form, and my identity in this space and time may die, and those who know of me in this space and time may die too, still, parts of me will be living forever together with everything else here in the universe.

i haven't read the opening post yet, i've been completely swamped with work this last week. but i do look forward to coming back to this one, as i think robert anton wilson is a hoot to read. his book, 'cosmic trigger', is one of my faves. will come back with more comments as time permits. thumb up
JrnymnX
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Posted 03/18/12 - 1:36 AM:

Thinker13 wrote:
Will some people alive today never die?

Yes. The people who promised me a flying car have said so.wink

But seriously, there have been a great many discoveries in the last few years that very few even hear about that would point toward a greatly increased lifespan, or at least the possibility of it. (There does seem to be a bit of a problem with the apparent hard-cap of 114 years of age however.)

Turning these discoveries into increased lifespan for the masses will probably take far longer than will matter for us. With the obvious exception of Henry who probably already has a terminator-style robot frame prototype under construction.smiling face
Thinker13
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Posted 03/18/12 - 3:23 AM:

JrnymnX wrote:

Yes. The people who promised me a flying car have said so.wink


laughing Man, I doubt if you read my 2001: A Space Odyssey thread, but I have been reading about flying cars since last 15 years and I read that it was to happen by 2010 but we are still crawling on a day to day basis and nothing likely seems to be there in very near future.disapproval


But seriously, there have been a great many discoveries in the last few years that very few even hear about that would point toward a greatly increased lifespan, or at least the possibility of it. (There does seem to be a bit of a problem with the apparent hard-cap of 114 years of age however.)


To a T.

Turning these discoveries into increased lifespan for the masses will probably take far longer than will matter for us. With the obvious exception of Henry who probably already has a terminator-style robot frame prototype under construction.smiling face



Henry is a class apart!wink
henry quirk
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Posted 03/19/12 - 8:40 AM:

I've rethought the whole terminator-style frame and have opted, instead, to go with Jameson-type cyborg route (google it for a view).

A cleaner design... wink
thedoc
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Posted 03/19/12 - 1:25 PM:

I'm going to look into regereration, seems a good aproach, and if anyone is mad at me they woun't recognize the new me.
Thinker13
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Posted 03/19/12 - 1:31 PM:

thedoc wrote:
I'm going to look into regereration, seems a good aproach, and if anyone is mad at me they woun't recognize the new me.



thumb up whee
JrnymnX
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Posted 03/19/12 - 4:36 PM:

henry quirk wrote:
I've rethought the whole terminator-style frame and have opted, instead, to go with Jameson-type cyborg route (google it for a view).

A cleaner design... wink

The only pic I could find (and I searched a whole 2 minutes kooky ) was a lego creation. Not very awe inspiring.
henry quirk
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Posted 03/21/12 - 8:36 AM:

"Not very awe inspiring"

When one is plunked down on a mile-wide rock in the orbit of Neptune, with the nearest soul 30 astronomical units (92 million plus miles) away, inspiring awe is very low on the list of things to care about.

The on-going survival on one's locus (brain) is, on the other hand, of utmost importance.

Being a box is, again, a cleaner design than the Terminator-style frame with all its moving parts. Legs, for example...in zero (or minimal) gravity, legs are superfluous, as is an obvious head.

Now, Doc wants to regenerate (give the man a TARDIS!) which is fine if he intends on staying planet-side...I plan to be 'out there'.
Thinker13
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Posted 03/21/12 - 9:54 AM:

Now this is something different Henry! I have not seen something like this in last 4 years since we started interacting! It's beyond my comprehension that this image is not 'existential'. May be it's after all.

I like it. thumb up
henry quirk
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Posted 03/21/12 - 10:02 AM:

I hadn't really thought about the existentialist quality of the image (just wanted to show JrnymnX what I was ranting about), but, you're right, Thinker.

Don't get attached though...it'll change soon enough.
Thinker13
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Posted 03/21/12 - 10:04 AM:

henry quirk wrote:
I hadn't really thought about the existentialist quality of the image (just wanted to show JrnymnX what I was ranting about), but, you're right, Thinker.

Don't get attached though...it'll change soon enough.



I thought so, because of the conversation up-thread. So bear again or something else? sisyphus
henry quirk
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Posted 03/21/12 - 10:06 AM:

I haven't a clue...something else will catch my eye eventually.
Thinker13
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Posted 03/21/12 - 10:08 AM:

henry quirk wrote:
I haven't a clue...something else will catch my eye eventually.


thumb up
JrnymnX
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Posted 03/21/12 - 5:30 PM:

henry quirk wrote:
When one is plunked down on a mile-wide rock in the orbit of Neptune, with the nearest soul 30 astronomical units (92 million plus miles) away, inspiring awe is very low on the list of things to care about.

Better hope the fellows launching you don't think putting gum on your array is funny.
Soft Wind
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Posted 03/23/12 - 12:20 AM:

For me

this is a stubid idea, you are gonna get old, you can greatly improve on your health by juiceing vegitables, sleeping well and staying away from dark thoughts, images and toxic people.

But you are gonna die.

I had a near death experiance some years back.

There is no real death, just transition, and that time many of my transitioned loved ones were there to tell me my time had not come.

What i saw then was better then this blood drenched mud ball, but i have loved ones here, I would do anything for.

if you really are that afrade of death, you should re consider your life.

no mature person who has done there home work is over concerned with death, what happy people want is to love and to be loved.

and some real peaceful sleep, what has anyone ever had better then that, cause with those two things every thing else will come, for most folks, not all but most.

hughughughughughughughughughug
Thinker13
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Posted 03/23/12 - 12:25 AM:

Soft Wind wrote:
For me

this is a stubid idea, you are gonna get old, you can greatly improve on your health by juiceing vegitables, sleeping well and staying away from dark thoughts, images and toxic people.

But you are gonna die.

I had a near death experiance some years back.

There is no real death, just transition, and that time many of my transitioned loved ones were there to tell me my time had not come.

What i saw then was better then this blood drenched mud ball, but i have loved ones here, I would do anything for.

if you really are that afrade of death, you should re consider your life.

no mature person who has done there home work is over concerned with death, what happy people want is to love and to be loved.

and some real peaceful sleep, what has anyone ever had better then that, cause with those two things every thing else will come, for most folks, not all but most.

hughughughughughughughughughug



I think you have not read closely enough. 'There is no death for me', is my psychological disposition and there is a thread in this very forum where we discussed about that proposition of mine. This very thread is about discussing why these scientific estimates, be they about space-migration or Life-extension, are so inaccurate.


Anyway, I am glad to know that you had a NDE. Could you describe it in detail?


hug
Soft Wind
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Posted 03/23/12 - 1:33 AM:

I was using the editorial "YOU"

did not mean to impose.

I dearly wish i could tell you, it would be the nicest thing one being could ever do for another.

I will tell you this, i learned in a micro secound i love everone.

every last being i have ever seen or known of.

Those i think i hate i hate because they have so deeply desappointed my love for them.

there is two types of love.

need love

and gift love

when we "need love" folks we are not up on our feet the way we could be.

When we gift love folks we have endless forgiveness.

it is endless as god.

we must come to gift love every one or we become sick.

We come to this world to study where our gift love is weak.

all people who come home to them selves learn this.

Almost none know how to gift love after the tragity of

"human birth seperation"

We are in shock from it for decades.

This is furthered by our pre birth decision to be born into some situation that brings out our weakness.

In all cases we slowly learn to craw up from it or the "life" was a failure.

Many only use what they learn after transition.

It would appear god made us because she/he wanted a play mate to enjoy it all with.

But even "creation shock" stuns us, so we must slowly

learn to gift love-

Before we can calm down and watch the beautiful view with god.

Then we learn we are as holy as god in good, but just not with gods magnitude.

There are over 7 million dicumented cases of NDE

in forty languges they all say the same thing if they incounter the light.

It asks you.

"how have you learned to love more.

How have you grown in wisdom to know how to love more.

How have you become more like me".

I want to tell you of one other thing millions have spoke of.

Its the burning.

This light knows passion.

this light burns you so hard clean with love you think you are gonna die.

But you don't, you just realize what a complete fool you have been hating all those folks and only loving others.

There are no monsters in the universe.

All pain and torture is of this world.

And after "you" decide to leave here it all only gets better.

Any one who tries to scare you about hell is a lier

What hell could there be worse then this place --with out love.


SEE the moody blues song "watching and waiting"

Edited by Soft Wind on 03/23/12 - 1:43 AM
thedoc
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Posted 03/23/12 - 8:34 AM:

Soft Wind wrote:

What hell could there be worse then this place --with out love.



What heaven could be better than this place - when you are surrounded by those you love?

Soft Wind, welcome to 'The Couch'.

Have you read any thing by Joseph Campbell?
henry quirk
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Posted 03/23/12 - 8:36 AM:

"please pay little attention to this guy"

An excellent idea... whatever
thedoc
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Posted 03/23/12 - 9:01 AM:

Henry, I like your new avatar, I've seen it several years ago on another forum.
Thinker13
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Posted 03/23/12 - 9:01 AM:

henry quirk wrote:
"please pay little attention to this guy"

An excellent idea... whatever



laughing I like your avatar.
Soft Wind
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Posted 03/25/12 - 1:52 AM:

Dear Doctor

I love to be corrected.

when it is correct.

you are right there is little difference then here and heaven when there is love.

thats why folks who have NDE'd stay here, they have love.

For me, and just for me, as i don't want to impose-

when folks bitch, complain, act out eating junk food, drugs, mindless sex

its a love issue.

and a safety issue, like the back bone it is--british health care, folks need to know they are in a manageable universe.

let me tell you something, the big "you" in the sky knows dam well you did not ask to be created, its the big you in the skys problem too, when you hurt!!!clapclapclap that its such a pain filled trip here on "Mud Ball",

no body can/could figure out and stay on top of all the crap that happens in this world, only a sadist SOB would expect you to stay on top of all this mess.

Mary Shelly, bless her dreaming heart rocked the world with these lines---

Oh father ! did I ask you to create me out of the nothingness into the world of cause and effect>

No I did not:

you owe me!

and the universe owes each of you.

Was it your friggin idea to be born in a over whilming situationshaking headshaking headshaking head

I have 2 friends who are athiest, they just can't bring them selves to go near religion, its history by the hand of man is what it is-
a nightmare.

they live to love, they think the only time that they spend living is when they love, and is the only time they have to live.

this is the real beauty, that you deserve to love and have the right to demand it from the universe, even if you get over whelmed and crazy.

For a whole friggin life time.

tell me I am not blessed to know such people as these two., who would die for me, to save a life they think would be over forever if they let it slip.

seeing this, I. just me , can see why the world has given up and gone sick being told the universe gave up on them before they where even born.

what perverse thing is loose in the earth to prmote such a idea?,,,,

And how blind and hurt we where to believe it.kookykookykookykookykookykookykookykookykookyshaking headshaking headshaking headshaking headshaking headhug:hughughughughughughughughug:cl

Edited by Soft Wind on 03/25/12 - 2:06 AM
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