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The abortion debate

Comments on The abortion debate

cripes
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cripes
#51 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/25/12 - 6:27 AM:

Lib, I am so sorry to hear your person was violated by rape. I hope the individual paid a price.
libertygrl
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#52 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/26/12 - 3:16 PM:

thank you cripes for your support. yes, i do think he got what he deserved.
thedoc
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#53 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/26/12 - 5:31 PM:

We could hope that the punishment included a certain amputation, but I'm sure that some 'animal' rights groups would be up in arms about it. In my psychology class the professor liked to use the example of the bull that was much more mellow and less aggressive after that procedure. My Uncle had a farm and once I helped him with some pigglets so they would fatten up better having nothing else to do.
Thinker13
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#54 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/26/12 - 5:46 PM:

thedoc wrote:
We could hope that the punishment included a certain amputation, but I'm sure that some 'animal' rights groups would be up in arms about it. In my psychology class the professor liked to use the example of the bull that was much more mellow and less aggressive after that procedure. My Uncle had a farm and once I helped him with some pigglets so they would fatten up better having nothing else to do.



Crude.
thedoc
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#55 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/26/12 - 7:01 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:



Crude.



It's the real world. (quote Henry)
Thinker13
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#56 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/26/12 - 11:57 PM:

thedoc wrote:



It's the real world. (quote Henry)



That's yet to be seen thedoc.


henry quirk
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#57 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/28/12 - 9:45 AM:

"It's the real world"

Not really, no.

In the real world: Lib would have an opportunity to visit vengeance on the guy up to and including lengthy torture and slow death.

Almost even before man fell out of the tress: the attempt to set man apart from, to make him and her one step removed from, 'reality' has been exercised.

Religion, politics, 'culture', etc., all tools in cocooning the individual and removing from the individual the capacity to self-define and self-determine.

Largely that cocooning has been successful.
thedoc
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#58 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/28/12 - 4:36 PM:

henry quirk wrote:
"It's the real world"

Not really, no.

In the real world: Lib would have an opportunity to visit vengeance on the guy up to and including lengthy torture and slow death.


Perhaps I should have qualified that. 'In the real world as it should be'.
henry quirk
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#59 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/29/12 - 9:21 AM:

Gotcha... thumb up
libertygrl
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#60 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/20/12 - 12:49 PM:

Monk wrote:
How often does rape result in pregnancy? I reckon it is extremely rare.

Just recently came across some statistics on this, thought it was worth sharing for the sake of any future visitors to the thread. A study published in 2003 found that "a single act of rape was more than twice as likely to result in pregnancy than an act of consensual sex".

source: www.springerlink.com/conten...t/wp5cnp43k6byxj4d/?MUD=MP
thedoc
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#61 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/20/12 - 1:40 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

Just recently came across some statistics on this, thought it was worth sharing for the sake of any future visitors to the thread. A study published in 2003 found that "a single act of rape was more than twice as likely to result in pregnancy than an act of consensual sex".

source: www.springerlink.com/conten...t/wp5cnp43k6byxj4d/?MUD=MP



That would make a lot of sense, since during rape there is no consideration for the safety and welfare of the victim, but during consensual sex there is a consideration of whether pregnancy will occure, and precautions can be taken.
libertygrl
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#62 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/20/12 - 2:45 PM:

well, they're talking about unprotected consensual sex, particularly between couples who are trying to conceive. the rate of pregnancy is much higher in rape victims than in women who actually want to get pregnant.
henry quirk
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#63 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/21/12 - 8:53 AM:

"...the rate of pregnancy is much higher in rape victims than in women who actually want to get pregnant"

Why?

Sperm is sperm and eggs are eggs...why should rape result in more pregnancies than unprotected consensual sex?

It doesn't make sense to me.
libertygrl
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#64 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/21/12 - 12:30 PM:

Apparently the article goes into some theories as to why that may be the case, but you have to be a subscriber to download the full text of the study. I'd be curious to know myself.
henry quirk
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#65 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/21/12 - 12:47 PM:

Yeah, accessing the link I discovered the same ('must be subscriber').

Not enough time on my end to research this myself.

An unsettling conclusion (if rape results in more pregnancies than unprotected consensual sex): fertility (male and or female) is enhanced by rape (the biological/psychological effects of rape enhance fertility).
libertygrl
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#66 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/21/12 - 12:50 PM:

Unsettling indeed. The abstract suggests that it may in fact point to a biological cause for rape.
thedoc
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#67 - Quote - Permalink
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Posted 08/21/12 - 2:40 PM:

Unfortunately I was unable to access the data about couples trying to have a child. I can also see the wrong people getting this information and trying to alter the penalties for rape, by citeing it as a natural occurance. There is certainly a lot of instances of rape throughout history, especially in the context of military conquest, but it would be hoped that humanity had progressed beyond that. Perhaps evolution has not had time to alter that part of the genetic code?

I seem to remember one of the countries in Africa or the near east, where there was civil war, and the leader of one side was issuing supplies of 'viagra' to the troops, presumably to enhance their ability to commit rape on the conquered people. Some so-called human beings have not risen at all above the level of savage beasts.
libertygrl
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#68 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/22/12 - 9:57 AM:

Just found a website that cites the following information from that same study:

"As to why rape victims would have a higher rate of pregnancy, the Gottschalls put forward a few theories. They look at previous research, which suggests that men are more attracted to women who are fertile and ovulating. In consensual sex, women can decline sex at a time where there might be a high likelihood of pregnancy. That’s not the case in rape."
henry quirk
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#69 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/22/12 - 9:59 AM:

HA!

I was just about to post the same.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...n-other-women/

"As to why rape victims would have a higher rate of pregnancy, the Gottschalls put forward a few theories. They look at previous research, which suggests that men are more attracted to women who are fertile and ovulating. In consensual sex, women can decline sex at a time where there might be a high likelihood of pregnancy. That’s not the case in rape."
libertygrl
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#70 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/22/12 - 2:31 PM:

well, great minds do think alike, as they say =D

here's another interesting perspective on the abortion debate:

"Even if embryos have rights identical to yours and mine, we don't have the right to demand another person's body or biological functions be used to sustain our own"

source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violi...gory#Overview_of_the_essay

would love to hear your thoughts
henry quirk
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#71 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/22/12 - 3:16 PM:

As I say up-thread, I'm indifferent to the whole subject.

Will say this, however: if lil Johnny or Joanne Fetus is opposed to being aborted, let him or her take up arms in the womb and go to war.

Wouldn't that be sumthin'?

'What, Ma wants me OUT? Fuck that! I'll just go parasite and dig myself in deep! Or, I'll go cancerous and trash this place before I get yanked out!'

If potential moms knew, before hand, lil Johnny or Joanne could go to war from the inside, those ladies might think twice before having (unprotected) sex.
libertygrl
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#72 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/22/12 - 3:24 PM:

lol henry laughing

the only area where i would find fault with the argument is that with the exception of rape or failure of birth control to work properly (eg. broken condom), it is the mother's decision that led to the pregnancy to begin with. so as a consequence of her own action, i feel the mother has a certain amount of responsibility toward the child. it's not just a stranger on the street demanding her body as sustenance, it's the result of a choice that she made and presumably could have prevented. that being the case, terminating a pregnancy can have a tremendous emotional impact and the analogy of having a complete stranger make use of your body is not entirely accurate. it is a unique extenuating circumstance that is not easily ignored, even by the mother who willfully chooses to abort.

Edited by libertygrl on 08/22/12 - 3:28 PM
thedoc
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#73 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/22/12 - 6:06 PM:

I think we are pretty close on this one. The unborn child is NOT some uninvited guest or parasite, and especially not a part of the womans body, that she has absolute control over. the child is a unique individual with rights of their own.
thedoc
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#74 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/22/12 - 6:14 PM:

It has just occured to me that what I am saying here about abortion may seem contradictory to my position that the human population is much to large. Some might argue that abortion is a way to cut down the number of births, but I would argue that 'Prevention before is much to be prefered, rather than barbaric damage control later'. The Spartans were not as civilized as is thought.
SUNLIGHT
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#75 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 08/25/12 - 6:17 AM:

The georgia guidstones attempted to give the answer to decreasing the earths population , one of the suggestions was to reduce the earths population to a fraction of what it is now BUT they do not seem sure on how this is to be achieved rolling eyes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ahrg6lh4iU



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