The Couch

The abortion debate

Comments on The abortion debate

libertygrl
Administrator
Avatar

Usergroup: Administrators
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
Location: San Francisco

Total Topics: 425
Total Comments: 4672
Posted 01/24/12 - 12:16 PM:
Subject: The abortion debate
Just curious to know where you all stand on the abortion debate.

An acquaintance of mine made the assertion yesterday that fetuses consciously resist abortion in the womb. The idea that someone could think that seemed totally absurd to me, but I discovered afterward that there is apparently a film called "The Silent Scream" which makes this assertion, showing little fetuses reacting in opposition to the abortion in progress.

Richard Garlikov wrote an excellent dissertation on the subject, in which he addresses that very assertion. "Showing there is resistance by the fetus to leaving the womb or that the process is somewhat sickening, however, by itself does not show that abortion is wrong. Films of childbirth are also not generally pleasant to watch, and I would imagine that a movie taken of the fetus on the inside as it goes through labor and vaginal birth would not make it look like it was celebrating either. Babies certainly are not born smiling."

He goes on to say, "Of course, abortion is a sad thing to see, but that is because abortion is a sad thing. No one who argues for abortion can reasonably hold that it is a good thing, only that it is the right thing in certain circumstances. Just as no one can ever rightfully claim that a mastectomy is a good thing or a happy thing, only that it is the right thing in certain circumstances. Anyone facing a mastectomy would probably feel even worse about doing that if they had to watch a film showing the procedure first. How one reacts to any medical kind of film does not, by itself, show anything about the moral rightness or wrongness of the procedure."

And lastly, "I would rather argue that the apparent resistance to abortion is far less likely a sign of awareness of what is going on than it is some sort of reflex or reaction to a specific stimulus. Babies or children (and even adults) sometimes draw away from or seem to resist stimuli without having any reason for it, and sometimes are even attracted to things which are fatal or painful. In fact, it is often very difficult to get children to understand about death and that certain things can kill them or hurt them very badly. Trying to teach children to be careful around cars, for example, is not an easy task. I find it difficult to believe that an embryo has an understanding of death and danger that a child does not."

I found the whole argument rather fascinating actually. Would love to hear your thoughts on abortion in general.

smiling facelib
henry quirk
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Location: here

Total Topics: 47
Total Comments: 1298
Posted 01/24/12 - 3:04 PM:

I find abortion distasteful...a bit crass...a messy after-thought (procedure) done to clean up the unwanted result of a bit of sloppy pleasure.

However: as I can't get pregnant, and will never get a woman pregnant...*shrug*...my disdain for the procedure (and culture of lazy pleasure that makes such thing 'necessary') is kinda irrelevant.

Abort away!
libertygrl
Administrator
Avatar

Usergroup: Administrators
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
Location: San Francisco

Total Topics: 425
Total Comments: 4672
Posted 01/24/12 - 4:21 PM:

henry wrote:
I find abortion distasteful...a bit crass...a messy after-thought (procedure) done to clean up the unwanted result of a bit of sloppy pleasure.

unwanted pregnancy is not always the result of "sloppy pleasure", though, as you call it. there are pregnancies which result from rape - not just from strangers but from family members too. fathers who rape their teenager daughters and get them pregnant. there are pregnancies in which it is determined that the infant will, soon after birth, die within months of a very painful crippling disease. there are pregnancies which threaten the life of the mother. these are among many scenarios which bring some to consider abortion as an option.

henry wrote:
However: as I can't get pregnant, and will never get a woman pregnant...*shrug*...my disdain for the procedure (and culture of lazy pleasure that makes such thing 'necessary') is kinda irrelevant.

safe to say you're "pro-choice" then? wink

henry quirk
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Location: here

Total Topics: 47
Total Comments: 1298
Posted 01/25/12 - 10:15 AM:

"unwanted pregnancy is not always the result of "sloppy pleasure..."

Sure, but the bulk of abortions are about retroactive birth control.

Net sourcing being unreliable, I can't vouch for this, so I offer it as anecdotal:

There were 1.21 million abortions performed in the United States in 2008. This amounts to 3,322 abortions per day.

If true, certainly no one would, with a straight face, claim the bulk of that 1.21 million annually (3,322 daily) happened because of rape or incest or fetal illness or deformity.

The bulk of those abortions were retroactive birth control.

All well and fine (as I say, abort away!) but let's not pretend abortion is about anguish and pain and dysfunction...it's about convenience.

#

"safe to say you're "pro-choice" then?"

'Indifferent' is more accurate... nod
Thinker13
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 27, 2009

Total Topics: 357
Total Comments: 3379
Posted 01/25/12 - 10:25 AM:

henry quirk wrote:
"unwanted pregnancy is not always the result of "sloppy pleasure..."

Sure, but the bulk of abortions are about retroactive birth control.

Net sourcing being unreliable, I can't vouch for this, so I offer it as anecdotal:

There were 1.21 million abortions performed in the United States in 2008. This amounts to 3,322 abortions per day.

If true, certainly no one would, with a straight face, claim the bulk of that 1.21 million annually (3,322 daily) happened because of rape or incest or fetal illness or deformity.

The bulk of those abortions were retroactive birth control.

All well and fine (as I say, abort away!) but let's not pretend abortion is about anguish and pain and dysfunction...it's about convenience.

#

"safe to say you're "pro-choice" then?"

'Indifferent' is more accurate... nod



I like this argument. I am still thinking on the issue. smiling face
libertygrl
Administrator
Avatar

Usergroup: Administrators
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
Location: San Francisco

Total Topics: 425
Total Comments: 4672
Posted 01/25/12 - 11:03 AM:

henry wrote:
All well and fine (as I say, abort away!) but let's not pretend abortion is about anguish and pain and dysfunction...it's about convenience.

perhaps for most, it may be argued. but most is not the same as all, of course. and it's not fair to treat that minority of cases with the same ethical disdain as one might for the rest. which is what most "pro-life" people do, to my knowledge. they feel that abortion is never okay in any circumstance.
henry quirk
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Location: here

Total Topics: 47
Total Comments: 1298
Posted 01/25/12 - 1:10 PM:

Well, I COULD argue that many of these 'rapes' and 'incests' probably are neither, making the number of non-convenience abortions even smaller than is reported (so small, in fact, as to be nonexistent).

But, you're right, I painted with an overly wide brush.
libertygrl
Administrator
Avatar

Usergroup: Administrators
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
Location: San Francisco

Total Topics: 425
Total Comments: 4672
Posted 01/25/12 - 1:18 PM:

henry quirk wrote:
Well, I COULD argue that many of these 'rapes' and 'incests' probably are neither, making the number of non-convenience abortions even smaller than is reported (so small, in fact, as to be nonexistent).

you don't think they exist?
henry quirk
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Location: here

Total Topics: 47
Total Comments: 1298
Posted 01/25/12 - 2:19 PM:

Does it matter if I believe they exist (or don't exist)?

Abort away ye lazy, ye stupid, ye (potentially fictional) victims of rape and incest...abort away!

I wouldn't stop the lot of them even if I had the power to.
henry quirk
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Location: here

Total Topics: 47
Total Comments: 1298
#10 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/15/12 - 9:43 AM:

"I'm still waiting for you to come forward and explain in the abortion topic how rapes and incests are not really rapes and incests"

To reiterate (and expand): 'I COULD argue that many of these 'rapes' and 'incests' probably are neither'.

How can I say such a horrible thing?

Easily. Human nature being what it is, it's often easier to lie or distort that admit one has made a mistake.

Certainly: rape and incest are events that happen, but, certainly any number of women (and girls) enter into consensual acts, think better of it, and then (especially if a pregnancy is involved) fabricate rape charges...not ALL women do this, but a significant number 'do'.

With this in mind: figures regarding rapes and (to a lesser extent) incest are inflated.

It's sorta like what Starjade and those like him do: that is, I say 'this' and you must believe it simply because 'I' say it is so.

Now: your answer in the other thread?
thedoc
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 15, 2011

Total Topics: 41
Total Comments: 982
Avatar thedoc
#11 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/15/12 - 1:51 PM:

I will just say I'm in 'qualified opposition' to abortion.
Thinker13
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 27, 2009

Total Topics: 357
Total Comments: 3379
#12 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/15/12 - 2:24 PM:

thedoc wrote:
I will just say I'm in 'qualified opposition' to abortion.



I do feel that I have yet not thought about it clearly. This is a very sensitive issue in my opinion and I really had thought for most of my life that abortion is equivalent to killing. Now having read some points by Lib makes me think from the viewpoint of those upon whom the conception is forced in acts like rape or incest and who have a really hard time later on, physically, psychologically and socially.
libertygrl
Administrator
Avatar

Usergroup: Administrators
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
Location: San Francisco

Total Topics: 425
Total Comments: 4672
#13 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/15/12 - 6:15 PM:

I am generally opposed to abortion and the notion of using it as birth control. On the other hand, I see it as the "lesser of two evils" in a lot of cases. It is indeed a sensitive issue and it is difficult for opponents of abortion to acknowledge that any scenario at all is acceptable for abortion. And yet such scenarios do legitimately arise and must be addressed from a legal standpoint.

What seems somewhat strange to me is when those that would ardently defend the sacredness of life of the unborn seemingly care very little about the health and quality of that same life after it's born. Things like publicly accessible healthcare, putting an end to wars, and countless other things which affect the general quality of life, seem of much less or even no importance to some. Why is that?
thedoc
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 15, 2011

Total Topics: 41
Total Comments: 982
Avatar thedoc
#14 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/15/12 - 7:07 PM:

I would like to address some points on the abortion issue. In the case of a rape I would require that it be reported early and the charge proven so the the abortion could happen quickly. The one thing I would stress is 'what did the unborn child do to deserve death?', and it is the death of a human being, I am of the opinion that it is a human being from the moment of conception.

Incest is another issue that could be addressed in part by welfare reform. Where I grew up there was a family that was on 'assistance' and continued to increase their benefits when the daughters would have babies fathered by their father, all for the increased benifits. The cure would be 'no increased benifits for additional children (free birth control could be provided) once on welfare', and the child would be taken and put into foster homes or adoption, also the parents would be subject to sterilization for repeated offenses.

There are numerous programs to help families in need here in the US, I can't speak for the rest of the world but I know the need is great. One publicaly supported program is CHIP which my daughter is useing for health care for her children. Another is a local food bank that is actively supported by my church, (in spite of the fact that our church burned down more that a year ago, does not currently exist as a building, and we are in the process of rebuilding), and has been used by my step-grandson and his mother. We could support them directly but this way they are not depending on just us. Many people support these programs but just do not make a big fuss about it except to try and get others to join in with the support.

Final thought, 'What did the unborn child do to deserve to die?'
thedoc
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 15, 2011

Total Topics: 41
Total Comments: 982
Avatar thedoc
#15 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/15/12 - 7:19 PM:

I should add that there are many who support abortion who make the claim that it is their bodies and thay have the right to make their own choice, however I would state most emphatically that the unborn child growing and living inside their body is NOT PART OF THEIR BODY, it is a unique and individual human being and the mother does not have the right of life and death over that other human being. In fact the mother is responsable for and should be held accountable for the health and safety of that unborn child. End of rant, thankyou.
libertygrl
Administrator
Avatar

Usergroup: Administrators
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
Location: San Francisco

Total Topics: 425
Total Comments: 4672
#16 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/15/12 - 8:02 PM:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts doc, and by the way, I forgot to mention earlier in response to Henry that claiming a rape took place when it didn't is one of the most despicable things a person can do. It not only disrespects the wrongly accused but also every person who has suffered the crime for real. Hearing such stories makes me sick. Meanwhile, some women have indeed been raped, and in significant numbers that I would hardly call virtually non-existent.

'What did the unborn child do to deserve to die?'

They haven't done anything that can be considered worthy of life or death. That's why there's grey area there. They have not achieved anything, they have not a single memory for which they could feel a loss. To a certain point in the pregnancy it can be argued that they have no more consciousness than a plant. Nonetheless, I agree that abortion is murder. But what do you say, doc, about those cases in which the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother? Or how about those cases in which it is determined early on that the child will be diseased and crippled and will surely live a short and extremely painful life (for example less than 6 months).
Monk2400
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 19, 2005

Total Topics: 116
Total Comments: 1518
#17 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/15/12 - 8:06 PM:

thedoc wrote:

I should add that there are many who support abortion who make the claim that it is their bodies and thay have the right to make their own choice,

however I would state most emphatically that the unborn child growing and living inside their body is NOT PART OF THEIR BODY,

it is a unique and individual human being and the mother does not have the right of life and death over that other human being.


I absolutely agree.

I am always dismayed when pro-death folks make this faulty argument. We ought to know better by now, at this stage of our civilization. We do not 'own' our children, nor does any one person have the right to dispense with another's life. (Oh, we do this alright, but it has nothing to do with 'right', but is rather the assertion of power and force.)

Now, if we grant that each new human being is a unique individual from conception, then we can dispense with this erroneous position that a mother can 'do what she wants with her own body'. (Not to mention the further nonsense (often neglected) that this also applies to her actions PRIOR to said conception, rape et al not with standing.)

Then folks would have to justify abortion by other means, such as arguing that a fetus is not a 'person' by law and thus not subject to its protections or any rights.

8)

Edited by Monk2400 on 02/15/12 - 8:19 PM
Monk2400
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 19, 2005

Total Topics: 116
Total Comments: 1518
#18 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/15/12 - 8:18 PM:

Generally, I don't believe that abortion should be 'outlawed'. Neither should euthanasia. And there should be much stricter regulations regarding who and under what circumstances it ought to be allowed. Only when allowing the pregnancy to continue would harm either mother or child or both, should this be a consideration. And yes, this might include 'pre-emptive suffering' when the life of a child would be more painful than its death (for some extreme case of disease or deformity; NOT relevant for philosophical issues of whether the life, in its entirety, would be filled with suffering or not, viz. poverty, war, famine, etc.)

Any case where mother and child are perfectly healthy and no foreseeable physical danger is present, abortion should never be allowed, no matter what the cause of conception was.

8)
thedoc
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 15, 2011

Total Topics: 41
Total Comments: 982
Avatar thedoc
#19 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/15/12 - 9:58 PM:

That the unborn child is unaware is unknowable, or is it? I was very close to my youngest daughter during her pregnancies and I know that the fetus was aware of her at times. When it was active at an inopportune time she could sing to it and it would quiet down, there were many times it would respond to external stimulis, someone talking or rubbing the mothers belly. The unborn child is aware and conscious of what is happening around it.

When a life is at risk it is a judgement call by those concerned, if the unborn child is determined to be at risk of some deformity or debilitating condition, who are we to decide what the quality of that persons life is or could be. What if it had been determined that Stephen Hawking was going to develope ALS early in life, was that life without merrit, how are we to judge what any individual may or may not contribute.

"Not a person by Law" is the most empty argument possible, the fetus is a unique individual person by any definition you can produce. I know some-one who had the opinion that a child was not really alive till after birth from the Biblical reference to 'the breath of life' and that should be the moment when the baby was considered to be alive, I was a bit surprised and dismayed at that.

With the way medical science is advancing we have no way of knowing exactly how much a child will suffer, newer treatments could very well allow a newborn to live much longer and happier that just a few years ago. It was not too many years ago that doctors felt that a newborns nervous system was not developed and they could preform surgery without anesthetic, most likely the baby went into shock and was saved from some of the pain and suffering and trauma.

Thats quite enough for now, I need to have another glass of wine, or several, or I'll never get to sleep tonight.
libertygrl
Administrator
Avatar

Usergroup: Administrators
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
Location: San Francisco

Total Topics: 425
Total Comments: 4672
#20 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/16/12 - 11:22 AM:

Monk wrote:
Any case where mother and child are perfectly healthy and no foreseeable physical danger is present, abortion should never be allowed, no matter what the cause of conception was.

I think if you had ever been raped, you might feel differently. To add to the grief and trauma that a woman suffers naturally after a rape assault the pain and insult of being forced to carry the rapist's child to term is a cruel punishment, in my opinion. To say that the child is being punished by being aborted is, to me, by far, to a so much smaller extent. The aborted fetus will not suffer grief or feel any loss over it. Meanwhile the mother's grief and trauma are extended at least another nine months (during which time that anger and trauma is impacting the fetus**), on top of the pain of actual childbirth.

Plants respond to external stimuli as well. They respond well to people talking them, playing music. Yet we have no qualms about eating them.

Not that I think you two, doc & Monk, need to agree with me. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I'm glad to hear your points of view. Just defending my own position, that is all.

** Edit: Thought I should add that I do believe there is a point in the fetal development at which the nervous system is sufficiently developed such that abortion should not be attempted after that point.

Edited by libertygrl on 02/16/12 - 12:30 PM
Monk2400
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 19, 2005

Total Topics: 116
Total Comments: 1518
#21 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/16/12 - 3:46 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

To add to the grief and trauma that a woman suffers naturally after a rape assault the pain and insult of being forced to carry the rapist's child to term is a cruel punishment, in my opinion.


Unfortunately, this is pure selfishness. But it all depends on your value system, of course. If one sees a woman's (finite) pain (and potential healing) as superior to the value of the unique life of another human being, then by all means terminate. But if one sees human life as being infinitely precious, rare, and marvelous, then any opportunity to bring another such life into the world is a cause for celebration and something to be protected. And immho, it's difficult to say that one person's pain, which can be overcome, is worth more than the potential an entire life offers. I don't see what sort of value system could reasonably make such a judgment. (And let's bear in mind, for both the baby and the mother we are speculating on the nature of future sufferings and experiences, so we are reasoning based on probabilities and imaginations.)

Further, to say that the victim will not suffer as much is a faulty argument. Its like making murder acceptable if only we use the right poison so the victim dies instantly without feeling a thing or being any the wiser. If this is the sort of thing we really believe, then the rape victim ought to commit suicide as soon as possible, so as to permanently end all possibility of suffering on her account. Because death brings and end to everything, after all. And no person that is killed instantly has any time to "suffer grief or feel any loss" about it.

How often does rape result in pregnancy? I reckon it is extremely rare. As such, it is a poor reason, a poor exception upon which to base the rule, even if we do grant it as a legitimate excuse.


libertygrl wrote:

Plants respond to external stimuli as well. They respond well to people talking them, playing music. Yet we have no qualms about eating them.


There is a natural order of things. We don't eat our babies. We do eat plants and MUST to survive, given the nature of animal we are. We DO NOT need to kill our offspring--we choose to. This point is not analogous.

---

The abortion 'debate' is and shall remain entirely intractable. The reason is that folks that support abortion will always and without end continue to create excuses and rationalizations for it. They want to the right to kill, for selfish reasons, pure and simple. And pro-life folks will never accept any argument that attempts to marginalize the pain, experience, or existence of human life, from conception onward, in a way that would make it acceptable to terminate it.

So in the end, it is always simply a statement of either 'sides' beliefs. Which means that what we have here is a conflict of value systems, between which (assuming they are both rigorously consistent, coherent, logically valid given their fundamental axiological axioms) there is absolutely no possible resolution. Except the force applied by the group that has more power over the other to enforce its will.

8)


thedoc
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 15, 2011

Total Topics: 41
Total Comments: 982
Avatar thedoc
#22 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/16/12 - 4:47 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

Plants respond to external stimuli as well. They respond well to people talking them, playing music. Yet we have no qualms about eating them.



Sorry but this argument is a bit empty, many of the plants eaten are the part of the plant specifically grown by the plant to be eaten by an animal. Many fruits and vegitables are just that, bait for an animal to spread the seed away from the parent plant. Necter is produced by flowers to attract insects to aid in fertalization and provides food ofr the insects as a reward. Eating many parts of a plant in no way shape or form is in any way comparable to killing an animal.
thedoc
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 15, 2011

Total Topics: 41
Total Comments: 982
Avatar thedoc
#23 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/16/12 - 4:55 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

I think if you had ever been raped, you might feel differently. To add to the grief and trauma that a woman suffers naturally after a rape assault the pain and insult of being forced to carry the rapist's child to term is a cruel punishment, in my opinion. To say that the child is being punished by being aborted is, to me, by far, to a so much smaller extent. The aborted fetus will not suffer grief or feel any loss over it. Meanwhile the mother's grief and trauma are extended at least another nine months (during which time that anger and trauma is impacting the fetus**), on top of the pain of actual childbirth.


Do you speak from experience or is this surmise on your part, if surmise anyone can imagine and project to any extreme you wish. I would suggest from some limited experience that having a child is a very healing experience for the mother in many cases, but perhaps not all. And in this there is no way to know in advance, how many women have planed for addoption and then had second thoughts after the birth. It is certainly a popular theme in fiction.
libertygrl
Administrator
Avatar

Usergroup: Administrators
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
Location: San Francisco

Total Topics: 425
Total Comments: 4672
#24 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/16/12 - 5:31 PM:

If you're asking me if I've ever been raped, then the answer is yes. Have I ever been pregnant? No. Have you ever known a woman to get pregnant after being raped? You mention having some limited experience in the matter. I wonder if you are talking about pregnancy in general or pregnancy following rape specifically. Because of course, I can imagine that conceiving a child in an atmosphere of love and of intimacy would be a healing experience. As for conceiving a child during rape, I would definitely imagine that some women would want to carry the pregnancy to term. But I don't think they should be forced to. People respond in different ways to trauma, have different coping mechanisms. As I see it, if they were forced to have sex, they should not be forced to carry the child. Unless they want to.
thedoc
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 15, 2011

Total Topics: 41
Total Comments: 982
Avatar thedoc
#25 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/16/12 - 5:50 PM:

libertygrl wrote:
If you're asking me if I've ever been raped, then the answer is yes. Have I ever been pregnant? No. Have you ever known a woman to get pregnant after being raped? You mention having some limited experience in the matter. I wonder if you are talking about pregnancy in general or pregnancy following rape specifically. Because of course, I can imagine that conceiving a child in an atmosphere of love and of intimacy would be a healing experience. As for conceiving a child during rape, I would definitely imagine that some women would want to carry the pregnancy to term. But I don't think they should be forced to. People respond in different ways to trauma, have different coping mechanisms. As I see it, if they were forced to have sex, they should not be forced to carry the child. Unless they want to.



You have my sympathy for your experience.

I have never known a woman who became pregnant from a rape, in fact I do not know any women who have told me that they have been raped.

My experience is with women who have been pregnant in general and that is the healing experience I was refering to, the birth of a child and the sense of responsability that I have observed as a result.

As for carrying a child that is the result of a rape, I agree with your position, my only concern is that it was actually a rape and not a convient excuse. If a woman claims a rape, gets the abortion, and imediatly goes back to the party clubbing scene, I would be suspicious. I agree with Henry, Abortion is not a valid means of birth control.
Search thread for
Download thread as
  • 0/5
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5



Sorry, you don't have permission . Log in, or register if you haven't yet.



Acknowledgements:

Couch logo design by Midnight_Monk. The photo hanging above the couch was taken by Paul.

Powered by WSN Forum. Free smileys here.
Special thanks to Maria Cristina, Jesse , Echolist Directory, The Star Online,
Hosting Free Webs, and dmoz.org for referring visitors to this site!

Copyright notice:

Except where noted otherwise, copyright belongs to respective authors
for artwork, photography and text posted in this forum.