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reason vs intuition

Comments on reason vs intuition

libertygrl
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Posted 12/01/11 - 5:02 PM:
Subject: reason vs intuition
A continuation from another thread.

Which happens more often, intuition or reason? Any thoughts?
thedoc
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Posted 12/01/11 - 5:49 PM:

I would say this is going to be very difficult to determine, first you only have yourself to examine as there is no way to know which another person relies on, they might not even know for sure themselves. So given that, what do you think you rely on the most, and perhaps others could give an opinion for themselves.
libertygrl
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Posted 12/02/11 - 12:28 PM:

what is intuition? is it a whim? a desire? a gut feeling?

here are is a scenario.

person A: why did you cancel lunch with barry on friday?
person B: i just didn't want to go.
person A: why not?
person B: i don't know, i just didn't want to.

would you say that person B was acting on their intuition?
Thinker13
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Posted 12/02/11 - 12:58 PM:

libertygrl wrote:
what is intuition? is it a whim? a desire? a gut feeling?

here are is a scenario.

person A: why did you cancel lunch with barry on friday?
person B: i just didn't want to go.
person A: why not?
person B: i don't know, i just didn't want to.

would you say that person B was acting on their intuition?


TheFreeOnlineDictionary wrote:


Whim





n

1. A sudden or capricious idea; a fancy.
2. Arbitrary thought or impulse: governed by whim.
3. A vertical horse-powered drum used as a hoist in a mine.





Intuition

1.
a. The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition. See Synonyms at reason.
b. Knowledge gained by the use of this faculty; a perceptive insight.
2. A sense of something not evident or deducible; an impression.





Desire

tr.v. de·sired, de·sir·ing, de·sires
1. To wish or long for; want.
2. To express a wish for; request.
n.
1. A wish or longing.
2. A request or petition.
3. The object of longing: My greatest desire is to go back home.
4. Sexual appetite; passion.




A. Intuition is not desire.

B. Whim is much similar to Intuition and even might be intuition at times. What differentiates them, in my humble opinion is--whim is more of idiosyncrasy, of quirk and tells you more about the 'appearance' than does about the perception or faculty of knowledge.

It's the same reason why you would place intuition on a higher level in a ladder than whim!

C. Yes, gut feeling has been synonymous of intuition.


In my opinion, you would say that the agent 'B', in your example was acting on his whim. You can very well suggest that it was an intuition if you show, in a bigger picture that not going to birthday party indeed saved B a loss, or made him gain something!


Interestingly: In Sanskrit/Hindi--the term for intuition is 'Antah Pragya'---'Antah': Inner

'Pragya': Subtle intelligence which has more of 'Satguna' or 'Holy Energy' in it!




henry quirk
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Posted 12/02/11 - 12:59 PM:

As I said elsewhere: I think intuition is a kind of non-linear thinking, making it rare and appearing as the 'flash insight'.

I, like most, tend toward the linear (cause > effect; abc...; 123..., etc.)

My gut, every so often, (seems to) override my thinking, the result of 'thinking' in a clustered way.

Another way to look at it...

Linear thinking is adding the ingredients to the stew one at a time with liberal tasting as you go.

Non-linear, or clustered, thinking is just throwing all the ingredients in the pot together, letting it cook, and then tasting the result.

Looking at it that way: it easy to see why it's far simpler and satisfying to explain or describe linear reasoning to another than it is the non-linear.
Thinker13
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Posted 12/02/11 - 1:00 PM:

henry quirk wrote:

Looking at it that way: it easy to see why it's far simpler and satisfying to explain or describe linear reasoning to another than it is the non-linear.



Centipede's dilemma.
henry quirk
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Posted 12/02/11 - 1:08 PM:

"Centipede's dilemma"

Exactly.
thedoc
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Posted 12/02/11 - 1:44 PM:

Where would 'impulse' fit in, as in doing something on impulse without thought or consideration.
libertygrl
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Posted 12/02/11 - 2:24 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:
B. Whim is much similar to Intuition and even might be intuition at times. What differentiates them, in my humble opinion is--whim is more of idiosyncrasy, of quirk and tells you more about the 'appearance' than does about the perception or faculty of knowledge.

It's the same reason why you would place intuition on a higher level in a ladder than whim!


In my opinion, you would say that the agent 'B', in your example was acting on his whim. You can very well suggest that it was an intuition if you show, in a bigger picture that not going to birthday party indeed saved B a loss, or made him gain something!

it sounds like by your definition, intuition always leads to something of benefit to the person acting on the intuition?

so, let us say, then, by your definition, that whim is a simple act of spontaneity that does not necessarily bring gain. perhaps it brings loss in some cases.

so, how about this scenario: person B, acting on a random gut feeling, leaves a note on a park bench. the note only says "banana" on it. a little later in the day, person A comes along and finds the note. it just so happens that person A is a police detective working on a murder investigation. it just so happens that there is a man who goes by the name of joseph banana who was not previously a suspect in the investigation. however, because of this note, which person A assumes to be an anonymous tip, mr. banana is examined more closely and evidence is found to convict him of the murder.

person B knows nothing of this murder investigation, nor did he know who would come along and find the note. was leaving the note an act of intuition?
Thinker13
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#10 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/02/11 - 2:36 PM:

libertygrl wrote:



it sounds like by your definition, intuition always leads to something of benefit to the person acting on the intuition?

so, let us say, then, by your definition, that whim is a simple act of spontaneity that does not necessarily bring gain. perhaps it brings loss in some cases.

so, how about this scenario: person B, acting on a random gut feeling, leaves a note on a park bench. the note only says "banana" on it. a little later in the day, person A comes along and finds the note. it just so happens that person A is a police detective working on a murder investigation. it just so happens that there is a man who goes by the name of joseph banana who was not previously a suspect in the investigation. however, because of this note, which person A assumes to be an anonymous tip, mr. banana is examined more closely and evidence is found to convict him of the murder.

person B knows nothing of this murder investigation, nor did he know who would come along and find the note. was leaving the note an act of intuition?



Yes lib. A curious case indeed. smiling face

I did mention though that 'whim' might act as 'intuition' at times.

Worthy of note is: If you question Mr. B about his leaving note on park bench--unless he is aware of the series of events following---he is very likely to say that it was just a whim! OTOH, if he becomes aware of happenings--then he might say that it was an act of intuition.


libertygrl
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#11 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/02/11 - 2:36 PM:

also, can it be said that person B was acting on the desire to leave the note?
Thinker13
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Posted 12/02/11 - 2:45 PM:

libertygrl wrote:
also, can it be said that person B was acting on the desire to leave the note?



Indeed. Hahaha.

I recalled Mathematics classes.

Since A= B

B = C

C=A




I agree that in this way---his desire to leave note was because of his whim (intuition)--but does it equate desire with intuition?


Desire to eat bread or wash my room might be because of intuition but that would follow intuition and would not be called intuition.

I desire to do so many things in course of day--they're not all because of intuition. But yes, there might be a few desires which are borne out of intuition.
libertygrl
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Posted 12/02/11 - 2:49 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:

Yes lib. A curious case indeed. smiling face

I did mention though that 'whim' might act as 'intuition' at times.

Worthy of note is: If you question Mr. B about his leaving note on park bench--unless he is aware of the series of events following---he is very likely to say that it was just a whim! OTOH, if he becomes aware of happenings--then he might say that it was an act of intuition.

but what do you say, knowing yourself what person B does not know: that his whim led to the resolution of a murder investigation. does it count as intuition then, even though it did not technically benefit mr. B in any way?
libertygrl
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Posted 12/02/11 - 2:50 PM:

thedoc wrote:
Where would 'impulse' fit in, as in doing something on impulse without thought or consideration.

i would say it is kin to a whim in that case.
Thinker13
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Posted 12/02/11 - 3:30 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

but what do you say, knowing yourself what person B does not know: that his whim led to the resolution of a murder investigation. does it count as intuition then, even though it did not technically benefit mr. B in any way?



Then it pretty much depends on Mr. B's opinion. I often get ideas out of blue, of no practical use whatsoever, still, I regard them as 'intuition' and sometimes as 'whim'. It would be subjective in that case, in my opinion. But it is a good thought experiment lib and I really liked participating in it! nod
libertygrl
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Posted 12/02/11 - 6:09 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:
Then it pretty much depends on Mr. B's opinion. I often get ideas out of blue, of no practical use whatsoever, still, I regard them as 'intuition' and sometimes as 'whim'. It would be subjective in that case, in my opinion. But it is a good thought experiment lib and I really liked participating in it! nod

thumb up to extend the thought experiment further, if i may, what if person B was you? let's say you were sitting at the park one day, and the image of a banana popped into your mind. it seemed somehow important, but you were not sure how. you scribble it on a piece of paper, perhaps not even intending to leave it there on the bench, but when you got up to leave, the paper was left behind. later, you hear on the news that a man by the name of joseph banana was arrested due to an anonymous tip left on a piece of paper at the park! the police detective says in the television interview that they would never have found the incriminating evidence if it had not been for that anonymous tip. now, using your own subjective definition, looking back on the incident, would you say that writing the word "banana" on the piece of paper was an act of intuition?

i ask, partly out of curiosity, and also i'm trying to get a good understanding in my mind of what intuition means to you, in order to be able to discuss its frequency in relation to reason. smiling face

thedoc
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Posted 12/02/11 - 6:34 PM:

Sorry but I think this example is more of clairvoyance, intuitiion would deal with knowledge that was already accessable to the person, not something that the person had no possable way of knowing. This case would only be intuition if the person leaving the note had some contact with the murderer or the victim and had even an unconscious knowledge of the events.
libertygrl
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Posted 12/02/11 - 8:01 PM:

an interesting point, doc. all these different possibilities spring from acting a whim. so how do we know if they are intuition or not?

scenario:

mr. B (i'm sticking with B to be consistent with previous scenarios), on a whim, goes off and buys a lottery ticket. he never buys a lottery ticket, normally. but today, he felt that he must. and when he ends up winning, his wife thanks his intuition. (or maybe it was clairvoyance?) but let's say that mr. B doesn't end up winning the lottery. then he blows it off as a crazy whim. but the actual act of buying the ticket - is what inspired it actually something different because he didn't win, than what presumably inspired it if he had?

here's another scenario:

mr. B calls a telephone support desk regularly that has about 20 support reps working there. on this particular day, mr. B calls the support desk, and while it's ringing, waiting for someone to pick up, he gets the intuition(?) that sonia is going to answer. when he hears the receiver pick up at the other end, he says "hi sonia!" before the other person has a chance to speak. "how did you know?" she says.

was it clairvoyance? perhaps. or perhaps he had, as doc mentioned before, an unconscious knowledge of events. perhaps, unbeknownst to him, sonia always took calls between the hours of 1pm and 2pm because most of the other reps were at lunch during this time. but this is not something he had thought about consciously. if you had asked him when the best time to call and ask for sonia was, he could not tell you. but somewhere in the dark recesses of his mind, the call pattern had been registered. thus, a sudden insight sprang up, and he acted on it without giving it a second thought. is this what you would call an intuition?

my experience with intuition is that it usually feels a little different from a whim, although not always. with a whim, you feel like it doesn't matter too much if you act on it on or not. but with an intuition, it feels important that you should. (at least it does to me.)

no matter how we define and distinguish all these various forms of behavior - instinct - intuition - whim - clairvoyance - they all have one thing in common: the absence of reason as prior justification for an action. it seems to me that our means for distinguishing them from one another is simply by how things turn out afterward (and the outcome of events may have even been influenced by other factors outside of our control - and yet, if things turn out well, we assume one thing. if things turn out badly, we assume another). but how do these impulses arrive to begin with? are they really all that different in character?
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Posted 12/05/11 - 9:47 AM:

Every so often, I get a problem and before really evaluating it logically, I know the answer. Then I spend a couple of minutes constructing a logical basis for my answer.

On other occasions, I get a problem and spend half an hour looking for a solution without finding it. Then I give up and start thinking about other stuff. Then, half a day or a day later, all of a sudden, I have my answer. As if part of my brain has secretly been working the night shift.

Could this be caused by the brain's duality? The right brain scans through experiences and analyses and extrapolates the problem in its own special way, while the left part of the brain tries to 'explain' things through language. That would make logic a twin to language. This would explain why people almost invariably think that their own logic is infallible, even if they're contradicted by professional researchers and, equally often, reality:
Logic is how we explain reality to ourselves, and not necessarily the irrefutable abstract construct we assume it to be. (I've always though maths is pretty useless. laughing )



PS. It would also explain why my brother in law, who is extremely good at language, is also extremely hard to convince of points where he is wrong.

(Although, in fairness, he's a pretty smart guy, and so he's usually right. It might also be induction: I was right then, then, then, then, then and then, hence, I must be right now as well. lol. Don't tell him that. sticking out tongue )
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