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Getting Past Solipsism

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henry quirk
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#26 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/05/11 - 10:14 AM:

"The more precisely you define your boundary, the less precisely the environment you are in can be controlled, determined, or known."

A nonsensical assessment (to me). Can't see how viewing myself (assessing myself) as physically discrete and autonomous (in and from the environment) has anything to do with controlling the environment.


"Where can you find the (un-relative) evidence that your observable environment is truly...separate from you?"

While 'embedded' in the universe (and how can it be otherwise?), I'm move with relative freedom 'in' the universe. That is: I have no obligation (physically) to remain 'still' (I choose my place or places). Certainly I take 'in' to myself (from the environment) and eject 'out' from myself (into the environment) but these are not examples of my 'porosity' (lack of boundary). Instead the taking in and expelling are the discrete, focused, acts of a discrete, focused, on-going, phenomenon (me).

So: while I interact with the environment, I'm not 'of' the environment.

I must, however, acknowledge, 'scale' plays a role here...on a certain (macro) scale, I'm as indistinguishable from environment as a blood cell is from the blood puddle in the bar room lavatory, and, on another (micro) scale, I appear as a universe filled with discrete entities (cells and molecules).

The decider, then: that which allows me to assess and assert my distinctiveness, discreteness, singularness, is 'I' am the one who perceives. That is: as I stand in the world assessing my position as it relates to the components of the world, I find myself autonomous from (but not independent of) those components (and the world comprised of those components). Fundamentally, then, it is 'I'ness which makes for the separation.

It's a matter of perspective (which is, of course, relative, subjective).

The sum of it, then: I can offer no "(un-relative) evidence that (my) observable environment is truly...separate from (me)".

*shrug*

But: it is... wink

Edited by henry quirk on 12/05/11 - 11:01 AM. Reason: leaning it out
smokinpristiformis
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#27 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/05/11 - 11:02 AM:

solipsism = navel staring. sticking out tongue
longfun
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#28 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/05/11 - 11:30 AM:

henry quirk wrote:
"The more precisely you define your boundary, the less precisely the environment you are in can be controlled, determined, or known."


A nonsensical assessment (to me). Can't see how viewing myself (assessing myself) as physically discrete and autonomous (in and from the environment) has anything to do with controlling the environment.

It's but a rephrase of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

henry quirk wrote:


But: it is... wink

i totally get your points.
Yes it is smiling face
Maybe we need some passive detection system. A state of just being without interacting...others probably call this meditation.

longfun
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#29 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/05/11 - 11:31 AM:

smokinpristiformis wrote:
solipsism = navel staring. sticking out tongue

all else is the same navel staring but from a different perspective.
Thinker13
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#30 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/05/11 - 12:14 PM:

smokinpristiformis wrote:
solipsism = navel staring. sticking out tongue



Solipsism = Navel staring.

Navel staring = Omphaloskepsis.


Which means:


Solipsism= Omphaloskepsis.


The moral of the story is--if you want to get past Solipsism-- try getting past Omphaloskepsis.


takes a bow
henry quirk
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#31 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/05/11 - 1:45 PM:

"It's but a rephrase of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle."

If that's the case (I can't tell 'cause I'm uncertain about Heisenberg's principle) I can only conclude Heisenberg was a loon... wink

#

"i totally get your points. Yes it is"

Alignment! whee

#

"Maybe we need some passive detection system. A state of just being without interacting...others probably call this meditation."

I call it '*being dead'...HA!









*not strictly true, of course...being dead is, in effect, being increasingly 'porous' to the world as the carcass rots and liquefies...death, then, is very 'Zen'... wink
Thinker13
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#32 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/05/11 - 2:06 PM:

henry quirk wrote:
"It's but a rephrase of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle."

If that's the case (I can't tell 'cause I'm uncertain about Heisenberg's principle) I can only conclude Heisenberg was a loon... wink

#

"i totally get your points. Yes it is"

Alignment! whee

#

"Maybe we need some passive detection system. A state of just being without interacting...others probably call this meditation."

I call it '*being dead'...HA!









*not strictly true, of course...being dead is, in effect, being increasingly 'porous' to the world as the carcass rots and liquefies...death, then, is very 'Zen'... wink



'Interacting', can be meditative. Interaction is not necessarily a hindrance to meditation. shaking head
longfun
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#33 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/05/11 - 3:04 PM:

henry quirk wrote:
"It's but a rephrase of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle."

If that's the case (I can't tell 'cause I'm uncertain about Heisenberg's principle) I can only conclude Heisenberg was a loon... wink

that's a relative observation, based on the process logic of you as a process. I can live with that.

henry quirk wrote:

"i totally get your points. Yes it is"
Alignment! whee

but I should add : It is, it is not, and it is and not at the same time.

henry quirk wrote:

"Maybe we need some passive detection system. A state of just being without interacting...others probably call this meditation."

I call it '*being dead'...HA!

*not strictly true, of course...being dead is, in effect, being increasingly 'porous' to the world as the carcass rots and liquefies...death, then, is very 'Zen'... wink

Sure, in the meantime you live on. So maybe life is the failuregrin
In that case your "zen" is but the mean time between failures.
It doesn't really matter.

smokinpristiformis
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#34 - Quote - Permalink
1 of 1 people found this comment helpful
Posted 12/07/11 - 2:28 AM:

Err. What were we talking about again? sticking out tongue


As for Heisenberg: The man probably was a loon, as many geniuses are, but his principle was only concerned with quantum physics. I'm pretty sure that he didn't have henry in mind when he pictured the simultaneous determination of the velocity and position of a subatomic particle. heh. or did he? wink
henry quirk
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#35 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/07/11 - 9:31 AM:

"I'm pretty sure that he didn't have henry in mind when he pictured the simultaneous determination of the velocity and position of a subatomic particle. heh. or did he?"

HA!

This particle determines his own velocity and position...to heck with the observer.

#

"maybe life is the failure"

HA!

I like that.

#

"Interaction is not necessarily a hindrance to meditation."

Maybe...as a non-meditative sort, I can't really judge... wink
smokinpristiformis
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#36 - Quote - Permalink
1 of 1 people found this comment helpful
Posted 12/08/11 - 2:53 AM:

"I'm pretty sure that he didn't have henry in mind when he pictured the simultaneous determination of the velocity and position of a subatomic particle. heh. or did he?"

HA!

This particle determines his own velocity and position...to heck with the observer.


Which leads us seemlessly to another important scientific discovery: The 'Harvard principle'. I think you will like this one, henry. It goes like this:

Under the most rigorously controlled conditions of temperature, humidity, pressure, etc., the organism will do as it damn well pleases.
annaatkins
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#37 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 01/10/12 - 11:56 AM:

"I should forthwith be disposed to conclude that the wax is known by the act of sight, and not by the intuition of the mind alone, were it not for the analogous instance of human beings passing on in the street below, as observed from a window. In this case I do not fail to say that I see the men themselves, just as I say that I see the wax; and yet what do I see from the window beyond hats and cloaks that might cover artificial machines, whose motions might be determined by springs? But I judge that there are human beings from these appearances, and thus I comprehend, by the faculty of judgment alone which is in the mind, what I believed I saw with my eyes." (Meditation II) Descartes

As I believe the discussion has at some point taken a wrong turn, I have posted Descarte's most relevant paragraph (in my opinion) on solipsism (his solipsism - if I can call it that).
I believe that the understanding of solipsism has been simplified to such an extent during the discussion, that it has turned the philosophical view into this absurd idea, worth mocking. Couldn't let that happen smiling face
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