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Free Will vs. Fate

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KinNaoko90
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Posted 11/03/11 - 6:41 PM:
Subject: Free Will vs. Fate
I'm BAAAAACK!! whee

Anyways, I've realized lately that despite my desperate wanting to believe in free will, I just can't seem to do it. I can't prove that our existence is fatalistic. Nor do I want to. (It would kind of take the fun out of life.) All I can do is explain my reasoning... but that's besides the point.

My question is simply this: Suppose you "knew" that your lives were predetermined, would you face the "truth" or would you blind yourselves to it?
libertygrl
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Posted 11/04/11 - 11:45 AM:

welcome back! hug

KN wrote:
My question is simply this: Suppose you "knew" that your lives were predetermined, would you face the "truth" or would you blind yourselves to it?

personally, i'm a fan of facing all truths, no matter how difficult. let me ask a related question - if you've already seen a movie before, do you watch it again?

it sounds to me like you're suggesting that we do still have some free will here - you're asking if someone would choose option 1 ("facing the truth") or option 2 ("blinding yourself"). so is this an area where you do believe free will exists?

smiling facelib
henry quirk
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Posted 11/04/11 - 2:42 PM:

"Suppose you "knew" that your lives were predetermined, would you face the "truth" or would you blind yourselves to it?"

I'd face the truth, of course!

And every time I did an 'evil' or a 'wrong': sure a shit, I'd be crowing about how it was all determined, so 'it's not my fault!'.

Indulge every whim...satisfy every impulse for violence...foist up bloody revenge on every enemy...no worries for me!

I have the perfect 'get out of jail' card: I -- like every-one and -thing -- am determined...my will is not my own...I’m just a domino in a sequence of falling dominos.

'It's not my fault'.

As a proponent of agency and self-definition: I think the kind of determinism Kin suggests doesn’t exist.

Seems to me: while I’m embedded in a score of casual chains, I initiate new ones all the time because of decisions which begin solely with me.

Ah, but it would be nice to pull out that Ace card, 'it's not my fault’ and actually have it mean something... wink
Thinker13
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Posted 11/04/11 - 3:47 PM:

henry quirk wrote:


Seems to me: while I’m embedded in a score of casual chains, I initiate new ones all the time because of decisions which begin solely with me.

Ah, but it would be nice to pull out that Ace card, 'it's not my fault’ and actually have it mean something... wink


Henry: Did you mean 'casual' or 'causal'?
henry quirk
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Posted 11/04/11 - 3:57 PM:

HA!

Yeah, I should proof read before posting...I meant 'causal'.

I save the 'casual' chains for Saturday night... wink
Thinker13
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Posted 11/04/11 - 3:58 PM:

henry quirk wrote:
HA!

Yeah, I should proof read before posting...I meant 'causal'.

I save the 'casual' chains for Saturday night... wink



Hahaha laughing
Thinker13
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Posted 11/04/11 - 4:07 PM:

KinNaoko90 wrote:
I'm BAAAAACK!! whee

Anyways, I've realized lately that despite my desperate wanting to believe in free will, I just can't seem to do it. I can't prove that our existence is fatalistic. Nor do I want to. (It would kind of take the fun out of life.) All I can do is explain my reasoning... but that's besides the point.

My question is simply this: Suppose you "knew" that your lives were predetermined, would you face the "truth" or would you blind yourselves to it?


Instead of exercising my imagination for taking it as a hypothetical scenario, I am served by my memory, because, there have been times when I have completely surrendered to a deterministic universe.

I am telling you something very inspiring [ Let it seem like a Science-Fiction story]. The times when it happens to you---as I suppose is happening to you now --are special!

It will not be there with you forever. You will start believing in 'action' again!

In my deluded opinion: Such times open portals to parallel universes and everything changes.laughing

Right now: I am in a mode where I have faith in 'surrendered action'!

This is temporary [ I know]

I assume--I have pretty much answered your question!
Thinker13
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Posted 11/04/11 - 4:08 PM:

libertygrl wrote:
welcome back! hug


personally, i'm a fan of facing all truths, no matter how difficult. let me ask a related question - if you've already seen a movie before, do you watch it again?

it sounds to me like you're suggesting that we do still have some free will here - you're asking if someone would choose option 1 ("facing the truth") or option 2 ("blinding yourself"). so is this an area where you do believe free will exists?

smiling facelib



Your question, questioning the original one, is indeed incisive and acute! thumb up
Nihil Loc
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Posted 11/04/11 - 10:04 PM:

kinako wrote:
Suppose you "knew" that your lives were predetermined, would you face the "truth" or would you blind yourselves to it?


As Quirk suggests, a certainty about any predetermined narrative would too easily vindicate us from blame of all kinds of terrible acts. The world wouldn't be any different though. There would still be executors of law and criminals all doomed to their routine.

It seems any definite knowledge of our future would give us the opportunity (illusion) to exercise free will to change that future.

J.Ouspensky wrote a work of fiction about a man who meets a wizard that allows him to relieve his life and so change it for the better. Unfortunately the man fails to do anything different. Don't quite know what to make of the book. Could be an interesting read.

These terms, free will and fatalism, are not very useful as we tend toward an absolute either/or choice in discussion.

There could be layered contexts (competing perspectives) for understanding in what ways we exercise free will or are bound by a determined system. Obviously there are things we do that we affirm to be pure choice that in another analysis could be a matter of pure determinism.

One can't exercise choice without being a highly determined piece of machinery that works though the stable patterns of a highly determined universe.



Edited by Nihil Loc on 11/05/11 - 12:05 AM
henry quirk
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Posted 11/07/11 - 1:17 PM:

I used to be a firm proponent for 'free will' (as I understood it).

Time passed, and my need to assert an unrestrained will passed with it.

If it should turn out I'm nothing but bio-automata: so what?

The particular and peculiar robot I am: I'm content to be (unlike so many *others who suffer horribly, it seems, because of an inability to simply sit comfortably inside their own skins).









*others, who may be as robotic as I may be and, therefore, have no choice but to 'be' miserable...*shrug*
thedoc
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Posted 11/07/11 - 6:03 PM:

Nihil Loc wrote:


As Quirk suggests, a certainty about any predetermined narrative would too easily vindicate us from blame of all kinds of terrible acts. The world wouldn't be any different though. There would still be executors of law and criminals all doomed to their routine.




That is starting to sound like a Peacegirl clone, but she claims that absence of blame would preclude all 'terrible acts' in the first place, just a bit of fiction.
thedoc
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Posted 11/07/11 - 6:10 PM:

henry quirk wrote:

The particular and peculiar robot I am: I'm content to be (unlike so many *others who suffer horribly, it seems, because of an inability to simply sit comfortably inside their own skins)....*shrug*



Something like this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lIOvZXDUAA
libertygrl
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Posted 11/10/11 - 2:38 PM:

Nihil Loc wrote:
J.Ouspensky wrote a work of fiction about a man who meets a wizard that allows him to relieve his life and so change it for the better. Unfortunately the man fails to do anything different. Don't quite know what to make of the book. Could be an interesting read.

is it someone different than p.d. ouspensky? i have (p.d.) ouspensky's "in search of the miraculous" at home, also "talks with a devil". the piece you're describing sounds intriguing, do you know the title?
Nihil Loc
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Posted 11/17/11 - 1:48 PM:

lib wrote:
is it someone different than p.d. ouspensky? i have (p.d.) ouspensky's "in search of the miraculous" at home, also "talks with a devil". the piece you're describing sounds intriguing, do you know the title?


Sorry about that, Lib. The author is P.D. Ouspensky and the title is The Strange Life of Ivan Osokin.
Thinker13
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Posted 11/17/11 - 3:08 PM:

Nihil Loc wrote:


Sorry about that, Lib. The author is P.D. Ouspensky and the title is The Strange Life of Ivan Osokin.



Hmm. He is the disciple of infamous mystic George Gurdjieff. I thought I had heard about Ouspensky and then recalled Gurdjieff!
thedoc
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Posted 11/17/11 - 6:26 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

let me ask a related question - if you've already seen a movie before, do you watch it again?
smiling facelib


If it's a good movie why wouldn't you watch it again, if you didn't like it why would you watch it again. My grandson likes 'Polar Express', so I've probably seen it or heard it close to a 1,000 times, so what, I like it too. (It's got a train in it.) Would you listen to the same piece of music if you have heard it before? Would you look at the same piece of art, or read the same book over again?
libertygrl
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Posted 11/24/11 - 12:19 PM:

Nihil Loc wrote:
Sorry about that, Lib. The author is P.D. Ouspensky and the title is The Strange Life of Ivan Osokin.

cool, thanks nihil. i've got it in my amazon wishlist, i look forward to checking it out.
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