The Couch

punishment vs. reward

Comments on punishment vs. reward

thedoc
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 15, 2011

Total Topics: 41
Total Comments: 982
Avatar thedoc
#51 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/30/11 - 3:26 PM:

henry quirk wrote:

"I'm thinking even if forum participation is an idler's past time, there' still a reward in it (to 'be' heard; to feel as if one is doing 'something (semi)useful; etc.), even if said reward is not consciously sought after.



You can't paint everyone with the same brush.

Forum participation is a good example, I have been on a few different ones and it seems that there are different reasons for being there other than wasting time. I'll ignore 'spam' for now but there are other trolls who are just trying to stir things up and make fun of all those serious types who think they're so smart. I've encountered many who are just passionate about their cause or subject, and very 'tunnel visioned' about anything else or any disagreement. Some just get on to be a Jackass (Not Henry, I'm refering to other Jackasses), and be vulger or crude. For myself I got on my first forum because I thought I could learn something or share what I thought I knew or believed. 'Dropping Knowledge' was fun but had an awkward format. I'm still on other forums, mostly to learn something I didn't know before.
henry quirk
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Location: here

Total Topics: 47
Total Comments: 1298
#52 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/11 - 10:10 AM:

"Is this a universal insight into the feelings of others?"

Don't give a flip about the "feelings of others": mine is an observation on how the human individual behaves across all circumstances.

#

"Is there any basis for it at all?"

The evidence is all around for any one to 'see'.

#

"Animals, since you mention them, quite commonly sacrifice themselves for their young..."

Actually, they don't. To *sacrifice is the act of the self-aware (an 'I')...while some non-human animals may have something approaching 'self', none climb the mountain top were you and I stand.

An animal 'sacrificing' itself is simply bio-automata driven by impulse and instinct.

#

"Dawkins"

Not impressed by him...seems to 'miss' far more often than he 'hits'.

##

"You can't paint everyone with the same brush."

Sure I can! Saves an awful lot of time... wink

#

"Forum participation...there are different reasons for being there other than wasting time."

There are as many different 'takes' on why one participates on-line as there are 'ones', but these 'takes' (subjective, personal, assessments) all rest on the firm foundation of 'I go on-line because I profit', the profit being a pleasure or a satisfaction or a 'reward' of some kind...the exact nature of the 'reward' can be as idiosyncratic as the one going for it, but it is 'reward' nonetheless.

#

"Not Henry, I'm referring to other Jackasses"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!









*and said sacrifice is ALWAYS an attempt to 'gain', even as one loses, or gives up, something else.

Edited by henry quirk on 12/01/11 - 10:19 AM
Thinker13
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 27, 2009

Total Topics: 357
Total Comments: 3379
#53 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/11 - 10:30 AM:

"Animals, since you mention them, quite commonly sacrifice themselves for their young..."

Actually, they don't. To *sacrifice is the act of the self-aware (an 'I')...while some non-human animals may have something approaching 'self', none climb the mountain top were you and I stand.

An animal 'sacrificing' itself is simply bio-automata driven by impulse and instinct.


Very well put. thumb up

Anthropomorphism causes some peculiar ideas.I used to think( looking at the tears on their faces) in my childhood days that cows cry! laughing
smokinpristiformis
child of the stars
Avatar

Usergroup: Moderators
Joined: Apr 20, 2005
Location: Belgium

Total Topics: 74
Total Comments: 1247
#54 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/11 - 11:52 AM:

Actually, they don't. To *sacrifice is the act of the self-aware (an 'I')...while some non-human animals may have something approaching 'self', none climb the mountain top were you and I stand.

An animal 'sacrificing' itself is simply bio-automata driven by impulse and instinct.



A very optimistic view, I think, henry. I don't think that humanity is entirely free of impulse and instinct. Rationality is mostly just a cover-up for intuïtion. wink
Thinker13
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 27, 2009

Total Topics: 357
Total Comments: 3379
#55 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/11 - 11:56 AM:

smokinpristiformis wrote:



A very optimistic view, I think, henry. I don't think that humanity is entirely free of impulse and instinct. Rationality is mostly just a cover-up for intuïtion. wink



Well, apart from many *other* things I find this 'disparaging' for what I call intuition; because, what I infer from suggestion here is: Intuition is not quick 'insight'; rare and resourceful, but rather something as abundant and ordinary as 'reasoning'. shaking head
smokinpristiformis
child of the stars
Avatar

Usergroup: Moderators
Joined: Apr 20, 2005
Location: Belgium

Total Topics: 74
Total Comments: 1247
#56 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/11 - 12:49 PM:

Not sure in what sense I disparaged intuition there, Thinker. Would you like to elaborate a bit? smiling face
Thinker13
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 27, 2009

Total Topics: 357
Total Comments: 3379
#57 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/11 - 12:57 PM:

smokinpristiformis wrote:
Not sure in what sense I disparaged intuition there, Thinker. Would you like to elaborate a bit? smiling face


Just an opinion: 'Reason' as we use it in general, and what you call 'cover-up' for intuition is something we use almost always, in most routine pursuits. Intuition according to me is something which helps you invent, get solutions to your problems and is much more profound than 'reason'. If you suggest that 'reason' is cover-up for intuition, then, either I have misunderstood you or you are saying that intuition is as usual as reasoning and by 'usual' here I do mean in terms of both 'frequency' and 'application'. smiling face
smokinpristiformis
child of the stars
Avatar

Usergroup: Moderators
Joined: Apr 20, 2005
Location: Belgium

Total Topics: 74
Total Comments: 1247
#58 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/11 - 1:35 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:


Just an opinion: 'Reason' as we use it in general, and what you call 'cover-up' for intuition is something we use almost always, in most routine pursuits. Intuition according to me is something which helps you invent, get solutions to your problems and is much more profound than 'reason'. If you suggest that 'reason' is cover-up for intuition, then, either I have misunderstood you or you are saying that intuition is as usual as reasoning and by 'usual' here I do mean in terms of both 'frequency' and 'application'. smiling face



That's not what I said. I'm just saying that in many cases, people 'rationalise' their intuition. -- That doesn't mean that intuition is 'only' that what lies beneath reason and logic. And vice versa, by the way. smiling face
libertygrl
Administrator
Avatar

Usergroup: Administrators
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
Location: San Francisco

Total Topics: 425
Total Comments: 4672
#59 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/11 - 1:36 PM:

i believe intuition happens just as often as reason, in general. some people are more intuitive than others, and some people often discredit their own intuition and intuition in general (while still acting on it). i think these people act on intuition more than they realize. in recent years, i've met a lot of intuitive people who are aware that they are intuitive and who value their intuition.

one thing i've noticed is that certain religions, christianity for example, seem to discourage the use and trust of one's intuition. christianity teaches you that you are born a sinner, and that any impulse that comes naturally to you is wrong. i was raised in a christian sect, so while growing up i met very few people who valued intuition. i didn't think i was intuitive at the time, although looking back i see that i was. nowadays, i find that i gravitate toward other intuitive people.
Thinker13
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 27, 2009

Total Topics: 357
Total Comments: 3379
#60 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/11 - 1:38 PM:

smokinpristiformis wrote:



That's not what I said. I'm just saying that in many cases, people 'rationalise' their intuition. -- That doesn't mean that intuition is 'only' that what lies beneath reason and logic. And vice versa, by the way. smiling face


All clear.
Thinker13
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 27, 2009

Total Topics: 357
Total Comments: 3379
#61 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/11 - 1:46 PM:

libertygrl wrote:
i believe intuition happens just as often as reason, in general. some people are more intuitive than others, and some people often discredit their own intuition and intuition in general (while still acting on it). i think these people act on intuition more than they realize. in recent years, i've met a lot of intuitive people who are aware that they are intuitive and who value their intuition.


In my opinion, most meditative people would be most intuitive, be it in the field of Science, or art or in any other field. Intuition comes into play only after a certain thinning of boundaries between subconscious and conscious.

If you say: Everyone gets intuitive perceptions very often and they squelch the suggestions sent forth by their subconscious because of conditioning; I do not interpret it to mean that intuition happens as often as reason does. 'Reason' is more gross and gets aid by intuition which is subtler. Those who do not squelch their subtle messages tend to become more intuitive in my opinion ( On the other hand, similar to 'inborn genius' there might be 'inborn intuition' active in a certain infinitesimal sliver)





one thing i've noticed is that certain religions, christianity for example, seem to discourage the use and trust of one's intuition. christianity teaches you that you are born a sinner, and that any impulse that comes naturally to you is wrong. i was raised in a christian sect, so while growing up i met very few people who valued intuition. i didn't think i was intuitive at the time, although looking back i see that i was. nowadays, i find that i gravitate toward other intuitive people.



It's a fine example. I think, we do not have a contention about the 'acknowledgement' part though.
henry quirk
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Location: here

Total Topics: 47
Total Comments: 1298
#62 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/11 - 4:05 PM:

"Very well put."

wink

#

"Anthropomorphism causes some peculiar ideas. I used to think (looking at the tears on their faces) in my childhood days that cows cry."

HA!

It's that old debbil 'language': as a mostly improperly used tool, it convinces folks that processes intrinsic to the human individual are 'objects' that can be studied or observed apart from the individual; allows folks to attribute qualities to objects and animals the objects and animals don’t possess; and on and on...
henry quirk
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Location: here

Total Topics: 47
Total Comments: 1298
#63 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/11 - 4:10 PM:

"I don't think that humanity is entirely free of impulse and instinct."

Agreed. Thing is: the human individual is mightily influenced by impulse and instinct, but the dog (for example) is ruled or determined by impulse and instinct.

#

"Rationality is mostly just a cover-up for intuition."

Disagree: intuition (insofar as I can tell) is distinctly 'human', representing perhaps a kind of non-linear thinking...if so: this would explain why true intuition is rare, since most folks are mired in the linear.
libertygrl
Administrator
Avatar

Usergroup: Administrators
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
Location: San Francisco

Total Topics: 425
Total Comments: 4672
#64 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/11 - 5:02 PM:

Thinker wrote:
Intuition comes into play only after a certain thinning of boundaries between subconscious and conscious.

the wording of this seems to suggest that intuition must be consciously developed in order to be effective. with that, i would disagree. i think it can be improved via meditation, etc, but i believe most people are born with a certain degree of intuitive ability. some more so than others, obviously.

Thinker wrote:
( On the other hand, similar to 'inborn genius' there might be 'inborn intuition' active in a certain infinitesimal sliver)

perhaps "inborn intuition" is more common than you think? i believe it is.

Thinker wrote:
If you say: Everyone gets intuitive perceptions very often and they squelch the suggestions sent forth by their subconscious because of conditioning; I do not interpret it to mean that intuition happens as often as reason does. 'Reason' is more gross and gets aid by intuition which is subtler.

interesting thoughts, i think this is good food for a new topic.
thedoc
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 15, 2011

Total Topics: 41
Total Comments: 982
Avatar thedoc
#65 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/02/11 - 3:05 PM:

henry quirk wrote:
"I don't think that humanity is entirely free of impulse and instinct."

Agreed. Thing is: the human individual is mightily influenced by impulse and instinct, but the dog (for example) is ruled or determined by impulse and instinct.
.



Just to reinforce the example about the dog we once had a 'Coon Hound' that, as the Vet. said' was hard wired for certain responses. When at the Vet's office he would insessantly bay at the other animals even if I held his mouth shut you could hear him trying to bay in his throat, he even got kicked out of obedience school for it. Instincts can be very strong and override almost everything else at times.
henry quirk
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Location: here

Total Topics: 47
Total Comments: 1298
#66 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/02/11 - 5:19 PM:

"Instincts can be very strong and override almost everything else at times."

Yep...good example, Doc.
thedoc
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 15, 2011

Total Topics: 41
Total Comments: 982
Avatar thedoc
#67 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/25/13 - 11:07 PM:

henry quirk wrote:
Doc!

I knew I'd lure you to the dark side eventually... wink



Henry, where is this 'dark side' you were talking about, so far it seems like a nice forum, a lot nicer than some other forums I've been on.
henry quirk
Senior Member
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Location: here

Total Topics: 47
Total Comments: 1298
#68 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 02/26/13 - 10:53 AM:

HA!

Mebbe, I was just a'wishin' out loud... wink
Search thread for
Download thread as
  • 0/5
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5



Sorry, you don't have permission . Log in, or register if you haven't yet.



Acknowledgements:

Couch logo design by Midnight_Monk. The photo hanging above the couch was taken by Paul.

Powered by WSN Forum. Free smileys here.
Special thanks to Maria Cristina, Jesse , Echolist Directory, The Star Online,
Hosting Free Webs, and dmoz.org for referring visitors to this site!

Copyright notice:

Except where noted otherwise, copyright belongs to respective authors
for artwork, photography and text posted in this forum.