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Why homophobia?

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libertygrl
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Posted 04/11/11 - 4:59 PM:
Subject: Why homophobia?
came across the following quote today:

"Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?"
--Rosemari Roast

raised the question in my mind, why are people so fearful of homosexuality? surely a straight person who is confident and secure about their own sexual orientation has nothing to worry about?? is this strictly a christianity issue? i find it hard to believe that evolutionary pressure is any kind of factor here, not with the planet bursting with straight people popping out babies left and right. in other words, i don't think anyone can legitimately try to use fear of extinction as any kind of rationale here.

any thoughts?
Thinker13
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Posted 04/12/11 - 12:12 AM:

I think I have a sound answer to your question.

But before that, to provide some food for thoughts:

1. Why incest ( even if it is not 'forceful' ) is so looked down upon?
2. In some communities, like in Hindu community, there has been a cast system and marriage ( that is, sexual relationships and much more) outside one's cast has been considered as sinful....why?


What are your views on these?
libertygrl
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Posted 04/12/11 - 1:21 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:
1. Why incest ( even if it is not 'forceful' ) is so looked down upon?

probably because inbreeding produces unhealthy human beings.

Thinker wrote:
2. In some communities, like in Hindu community, there has been a cast system and marriage ( that is, sexual relationships and much more) outside one's cast has been considered as sinful....why?

the caste system is something i definitely don't agree with. as to why or maybe how it got that way, it would be my guess that it has to do with the development of elitism or aristocracy in any system. some people have an apparent need to convince themselves of being better than others.

on the other hand, my experiences with dating over the last few years have led me to believe that dating people outside of your income range can be problematic, to the extent that basically one person, the one who has a lot more spending money, also has a lot more freedom which the other person may not have. so either one person ends up frequently picking up the tab for the other, which may or may not cause a problem, or else their activities are limited to what the lower income individual can afford. i came to realize that there is sort of a natural classism at work, even if not a formal one.

nonetheless, for it to be considered forbidden or sinful to date outside one's "class" seems silly to me. some people do make it work and are very happy. (i realize the caste system is somewhat different, but i think it is, essentially, still a form of classism, although not based on things like income.)

what are your thoughts, thinker?
Thinker13
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Posted 04/13/11 - 12:27 AM:

libertygrl wrote:

probably because inbreeding produces unhealthy human beings.


This is the 'probable' "root cause", not something which is commonly conditioned. Conditioning is reinforcement done by religious/social taboos.


Similarly, homosexuality is considered a taboo and root cause is 'fear of extinction' if such a practice ever starts prevailing over heterosexuality. Your assertion that 'the planet is already overpopulated' is indeed apposite but our reptilian brain functions in a very peculiar way, opposing, everything new because of the fear of extinction and it cannot accept it just for allowing 'conscious homosexuality', therefore this much of vehement opposition to the idea.

Just think, since planet is overpopulated; Can anyone of our communities allow 'incest', saying: Ok---we already have enough healthy human beings out there, so lets experiment?
No----we can hardly imagine it, because deep down we are 'conditioned' against this---by religions and societies, since thousands of years---this conditioning is always inhabiting our reptilian brain and hence it's very difficult to think of something really new.
libertygrl
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Posted 04/13/11 - 1:04 AM:

Thinker wrote:
Just think, since planet is overpopulated; Can anyone of our communities allow 'incest', saying: Ok---we already have enough healthy human beings out there, so lets experiment?

hmm, i don't think it's a good analogy. deliberately doing something that is known to be outright harmful to human beings is very different from doing something that harms no one and that is practiced by over 1500 species (aforementioned quote apparently has the incorrect figure) without any threat to their survival. after all, it's a very simple matter for a female of any species to get pregnant through heterosexual relations while continuing to practice homosexuality or bisexuality (scientists have found this to be evident in many animal species). and of course, it's especially simple for humans, now that we've developed technology for using sperm donors, in vitro fertilization, etc.

Thinker wrote:
deep down we are 'conditioned' against this---by religions and societies

i agree that it comes from conditioning; i would speculate that it comes from strictly religious conditioning. the taboo has been so intensely conditioned that people are unable to see that any reasoning using a biological rationale against it is faulty. the extent of violence perpetrated out of fear of homosexuality is tragic.

what was the relevance of the caste system? smiling face
Thinker13
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Posted 04/15/11 - 1:06 AM:

libertygrl wrote:
hmm, i don't think it's a good analogy. deliberately doing something that is known to be outright harmful to human beings is very different from doing something that harms no one and that is practiced by over 1500 species (aforementioned quote apparently has the incorrect figure) without any threat to their survival.

Are you sure that incest is not practiced by almost same number of species or by even more number of species? I am not; though some research needs to be done before I can assert anything.


lib wrote:
what was the relevance of the caste system? smiling face


The caste system was supposed to address the righteous division of ‘labor’ and not that of ‘rights’. Bramhins were supposed to learn Vedas and other texts and to help others perform various rituals to appease Gods, Kshtriyas were warriors, Vaishyas were businessmen and traders and Shudras were those who used to clean and used to do household choirs . It was supposed to be a labor based on choice of work and not based on birth but its degeneration made it so. Brahmins indeed had more access to knowledge and hence they started manipulation of warriors. Later on your class became your ‘inherited’ right, i. e., if you’re born into a Bramhin family, you’re a Bramhin and so on. This class system is still prevalent in many regions of India, hence Bramhins are revered and Shudras are looked down upon. For many centuries, people born in ‘shudra’ classes, were exploited inhumanely and they were denied education; they could not even sit with persons of higher classes no matter how learned or intelligent they become (in spite of very conditions supporting their learning ).

The marriages, outside one’s religion (for ex: a Hindu marrying a Muslim or a Hindu marrying a Christian) were considered heinous crimes. Moreover any candidate of a higher class marrying someone from a lower class was ostracized from the class. This might have been because of the ignorant idea that doing so would help maintain ‘pious/superior blood line’. One of the reasons of India’s abject misery has been this caste system amongst Hindus. You might be aware of such caste system practices even amongst Christians. In the state of Kerala, there are divisions amongst Christians and there are higher versus lower Christians!

As an aside : You might find it amusing that I was born in a Bramhin family, but right since childhood I have been a harsh critic of Bramhins( manipulative, superstitious and ritualistic scholars, who are hypocrites and not Bramhins in the true sense!). My late grandfather was an Astrologer and looking at the stellium of five planets in the 12th house of my horoscope, he wrote (among other things…): “The native will be a critic of Bramhins”. I discovered his notes quite late (when I had already become a ‘harsh’ critic of manipulative Bramhins!
libertygrl
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Posted 04/15/11 - 1:55 AM:

Thinker13 wrote:
Are you sure that incest is not practiced by almost same number of species or by even more number of species? I am not; though some research needs to be done before I can assert anything.

it doesn't matter if it is or isn't. many species practice a lot of things, including cannibalism, eating their mates or their offspring - obviously these would not be acceptable practices for humans. the difference is that homosexuality and bisexuality can be practiced without harm to the species.
Thinker13
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Posted 04/15/11 - 2:48 AM:

libertygrl wrote:

it doesn't matter if it is or isn't. many species practice a lot of things, including cannibalism, eating their mates or their offspring - obviously these would not be acceptable practices for humans. the difference is that homosexuality and bisexuality can be practiced without harm to the species.


I agree with most of what you say, provided, it is proven that all those species, which have practiced incest along with 'outside incest' regeneration, have not survived. Do you have any sources suggesting so? I will be eager to check them out!zen
smokinpristiformis
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Posted 04/15/11 - 6:20 AM:

This is the 'probable' "root cause", not something which is commonly conditioned. Conditioning is reinforcement done by religious/social taboos.


From what I've read, it appears that a remarkable small number of siblings show any sexual interest in eachother. I am pretty sure that the evolutionary disadvantage of incest has produced some anti-incest hardwiring. On a cultural level, it's a whole other story. I think I can name quite a few old european kings born of siblings or close relatives, and I suppose it was quite the habit among higher aristocracy for a long time. The reason was that they wanted to keep the power and the money in the family. The obvious result was that many of these kings had weak health and genetic flaws. Many suffered from constant pain and illness and/or died young.
libertygrl
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Posted 04/15/11 - 11:16 AM:

Thinker13 wrote:
I agree with most of what you say, provided, it is proven that all those species, which have practiced incest along with 'outside incest' regeneration, have not survived. Do you have any sources suggesting so? I will be eager to check them out!zen

incest has been clearly shown to produce deformed, unhealthy human beings. if you have sources that indicate otherwise, please feel free to share. but i don't think it's a healthy practice to encourage the tolerance of. peace
Thinker13
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Posted 04/15/11 - 12:59 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

incest has been clearly shown to produce deformed, unhealthy human beings. if you have sources that indicate otherwise, please feel free to share. but i don't think it's a healthy practice to encourage the tolerance of. peace



peace

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