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The Voluntary Lobotomy

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libertygrl
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Posted 03/28/11 - 11:50 AM:
Subject: The Voluntary Lobotomy
* * * SPOILER ALERT * * * FILM SPOILERS AHEAD (SUCKER PUNCH, SHUTTER ISLAND, LIMITLESS) * * *

This topic is inspired in part by quirk's comment in the "Quote of the Day: Redux" thread:

quirk wrote:
"there's a treatment, but it's very expensive"

Sure: lobotomy (actual or chemical)... whatever

Over the weekend, I saw a great film (Sucker Punch, loved it) which ends in a voluntary lobotomy. It reminded me of another film I saw and loved last year, Shutter Island, which also ends in a voluntary lobotomy, albeit for somewhat different reasons. These together, with henry's quote above, got me to thinking on lobotomies (chemical or actual) and the symbolism from these films, and what may be coming to our collective attention about the way we treat our brains through drug abuse. (And by drugs I mean drugs of any kind: illegal drugs, legal drugs - especially alcohol - as well as prescription drugs.)

Also saw a great film the weekend before, called "Limitless" (loved it), which deals with the theme of using drugs to unlock the potential of the brain. Which goes to show that not all drug use is motivated by self abuse, and can actually unlock tremendous potential.

The question arises: how do you move toward the end of unlocking one's potential as opposed to self-induced lobotomy? Is it strictly a matter of how much inner strength you have - thus, presumably, question of trial and error, or on a grander scale, fate? Or is it as easy as knowing your own motivations: self love vs self hatred? Or do these motivations not really matter too much when chance intervenes? I'd say this is what happens in "Limitless" - drug abuse begins by self loathing and ends in self realization. I'd also say that this is the potential outcome with certain specific drugs (I'm thinking ecstasy, specifically).

Would love to hear your thoughts,
lib

Thinker13
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Posted 03/29/11 - 12:57 AM:

lib wrote:
Over the weekend, I saw a great film (Sucker Punch, loved it) which ends in a voluntary lobotomy. It reminded me of another film I saw and loved last year, Shutter Island, which also ends in a voluntary lobotomy, albeit for somewhat different reasons. These together, with henry's quote above, got me to thinking on lobotomies (chemical or actual) and the symbolism from these films, and what may be coming to our collective attention about the way we treat our brains through drug abuse. (And by drugs I mean drugs of any kind: illegal drugs, legal drugs - especially alcohol - as well as prescription drugs.)

If you call ‘Sucker Punch’ a great movie, well, it must be having some value; let me download and watch it.smiling face

lib wrote:
Also saw a great film the weekend before, called "Limitless" (loved it), which deals with the theme of using drugs to unlock the potential of the brain. Which goes to show that not all drug use is motivated by self abuse, and can actually unlock tremendous potential.


Well, I also watched it on Sunday. I did not find it ‘great’ to be honest; still, it entertains a great deal and keeps you tuned. As the discussion is more about movies, I would like to mention that I also watched Constantine recently. I found it to be intriguing but a bit unclear at times regarding sin and hell but Kenu Reeves is worth being watched!
Thinker13
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Posted 03/29/11 - 1:00 AM:

lib wrote:

The question arises: how do you move toward the end of unlocking one's potential as opposed to self-induced lobotomy? Is it strictly a matter of how much inner strength you have - thus, presumably, question of trial and error, or on a grander scale, fate? Or is it as easy as knowing your own motivations: self love vs self hatred? Or do these motivations not really matter too much when chance intervenes? I'd say this is what happens in "Limitless" - drug abuse begins by self loathing and ends in self realization. I'd also say that this is the potential outcome with certain specific drugs (I'm thinking ecstasy, specifically).


Too many questions lib. Can we handle them ‘one by one’? Yes, fate had a great say in the protagonist's life who was devoid of motivation, inspiration and was almost ‘doomed’ for failure and gloom.smiling face

libertygrl
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Posted 03/29/11 - 12:43 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:
If you call ‘Sucker Punch’ a great movie, well, it must be having some value; let me download and watch it.smiling face

it's a great film for its genre, mind you smiling face not the same kind of film as "memento", so don't have too high expectations! but as an action film and as a fairy tale, it is IMO quite spectacular. and for me, full of interesting symbolism.

Thinker wrote:
Well, I also watched it on Sunday. I did not find it ‘great’ to be honest; still, it entertains a great deal and keeps you tuned.

these are good qualities in a film. but i also find it great because of the not-typical subject matter. again, if you want to compare it to only the best of the best, surely it does fall short.

Thinker wrote:
As the discussion is more about movies, I would like to mention that I also watched Constantine recently. I found it to be intriguing but a bit unclear at times regarding sin and hell but Kenu Reeves is worth being watched!

constantine was a good movie, again not the best of the best, but definitely worth watching at least once. the moment at which he finally finds a little faith was immensely moving to me.

Thinker wrote:
Too many questions lib. Can we handle them ‘one by one’?

absolutely, whatever comes to mind is fine with me. thumb up

Thinker wrote:
Yes, fate had a great say in the protagonist's life who was devoid of motivation, inspiration and was almost ‘doomed’ for failure and gloom.

that's what i was thinking as well. then one day, someone hands him a pill, and the whole trajectory changes. this whole aspect resonated strongly with me and reminds me of when i began using ecstasy. the future seemed very bleak until one day i had this amazing tool in my hand. it changed everything. i also like that he eventually stopped using it in the end. it shows that he was really using it as a tool, rather than it using him (such as what might have happened if he had been using cocaine or meth or heroin - has anyone here seen "requiem for a dream"?) this also resonates with me, being that it has been almost a decade now since i have used ecstasy. but the positive impact it had on my life can never be reversed.
Thinker13
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Posted 03/29/11 - 1:04 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

it's a great film for its genre, mind you smiling face not the same kind of film as "memento", so don't have too high expectations! but as an action film and as a fairy tale, it is IMO quite spectacular. and for me, full of interesting symbolism.

smiling face


lib wrote:

these are good qualities in a film. but i also find it great because of the not-typical subject matter. again, if you want to compare it to only the best of the best, surely it does fall short.


Indeed.




lib wrote:

that's what i was thinking as well. then one day, someone hands him a pill, and the whole trajectory changes. this whole aspect resonated strongly with me and reminds me of when i began using ecstasy. the future seemed very bleak until one day i had this amazing tool in my hand. it changed everything. i also like that he eventually stopped using it in the end. it shows that he was really using it as a tool, rather than it using him (such as what might have happened if he had been using cocaine or meth or heroin - has anyone here seen "requiem for a dream"?) this also resonates with me, being that it has been almost a decade now since i have used ecstasy. but the positive impact it had on my life can never be reversed.


I have not seen that. I am also not familiar with 'ecstasy', could you tell us more about it, where and how you started using it and when did you stop using it?
libertygrl
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Posted 03/29/11 - 1:19 PM:

here is a highly informative documentary about the drug:

video.google.com/videoplay?...ocid=-1564288654365150131#

i started using ecstasy in the late 1990s, in the san francisco rave scene. i continued using it fairly heavily over a period of about 5 years. at a certain point i felt i had gotten everything from it that i could, and had no desire to use it anymore. have not used it since.

by the way, the withdrawal process was fairly intense and felt something like a voluntary lobotomy. i do believe that's because i was quitting a lot of drugs at the same time: alcohol, nicotine, marijuana and caffeine (all of which i was also using quite heavily). i would say the "lobotomy" feeling came from alcohol withdrawal more than anything else. each of the drugs had its particular impacts though, both in the coming and going.

Edited by libertygrl on 03/29/11 - 1:55 PM
Thinker13
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Posted 03/30/11 - 1:06 AM:

So you no longer take alcohol? I never took alcohol but many of my friends do. I wonder that whether it is the temporary forgetfullness it induces or something else due to which people get addicted to it. I mean there must be some pleasure to make you addicted to it.
libertygrl
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Posted 03/30/11 - 1:21 AM:

yes, it makes you forget, it makes you feel relaxed, carefree, it numbs your pain. during my withdrawal period i went for about 3 years of no alcohol. nowadays i do drink alcohol now and then, when i'm out with friends. i'm much more sensitive to hangovers now, though, it's not my favorite thing. i much prefer the lucidity of being sober these days.
Nihil Loc
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Posted 04/06/11 - 2:20 AM:

Didn't understand the end of this movie.

Wasn't the warden bribed by Babydoll's stepfather to forge the documents authorizing her lobotomy?

Girls were cute in skimpy outfits. Fight scenes were somewhat entertaining. Sensible plot was absent.
libertygrl
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Posted 04/06/11 - 11:47 AM:

NL wrote:
Wasn't the warden bribed by Babydoll's stepfather to forge the documents authorizing her lobotomy?

indeed, yes. dr. vera gorski (played by carla gugino) was apparently the one who officially had the authority to commission a lobotomy, and the warden had forged her signature on babydoll's lobotomy as well as many others, it would appear. in the end, babydoll and sweet pea had the opportunity to try to make their escape together, but babydoll chose to remain behind and create a diversion in order to ensure the success of sweet pea's escape.
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Posted 04/07/11 - 3:43 AM:

libertygrl wrote:
yes, it makes you forget, it makes you feel relaxed, carefree, it numbs your pain. during my withdrawal period i went for about 3 years of no alcohol. nowadays i do drink alcohol now and then, when i'm out with friends. i'm much more sensitive to hangovers now, though, it's not my favorite thing. i much prefer the lucidity of being sober these days.



thumb up
libertygrl
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Posted 04/11/11 - 3:43 PM:

Nihil Loc wrote:
Sensible plot was absent.

i'm reading now in various plot summaries that the whole bordello was a figment of babydoll's imagination?? i must have missed whatever indication of that there must have been at the beginning. that being the case, i agree, it really doesn't make much sense at all.

i guess the "sucker punch" is supposed to be that babydoll is not as innocent as she seems. (??)
libertygrl
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Posted 04/21/11 - 12:34 PM:

after giving "sucker punch" more consideration in the context of knowing now that she was imagining the whole bordello thing, i find my opinion (that of really liking the film) is unchanged. i think it's a great fairy tale, no different in my perception from a movie like "spirited away", which received much critical acclaim. the main difference between these two films, that i can see, is the absence of sexuality from "spirited away". short of that, i see them as being tremendously similar. like most fairy tales, the value is primarily metaphorical - typically there is marked absence of logic if they were to be taken in a strictly literal sense.
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