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Proof

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BRAVO
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BRAVO
Posted 03/13/11 - 2:59 PM:
Subject: Proof
How will you prove that you exist?
Any idea..
Monk2400
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Posted 03/13/11 - 3:13 PM:

You better prove to me that YOU exist, since I know about myself, and only need to convince myself. But you, I'm not so sure about, lol!

grin
Monk2400
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Posted 03/13/11 - 3:13 PM:

OTOH, we might want to clarify what we mean here by 'exist' and 'proof' and to what or whom we would address the answer.

8)
BRAVO
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BRAVO
Posted 03/13/11 - 3:25 PM:

MONK-I have no proof that i exist.Life is arduous that way,but we must be brave.
Now you show me that how do you exist?
Thinker13
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Posted 03/13/11 - 3:31 PM:

Monk2400 is right in saying that 'proof' and 'exist' need to be defined first. Why do you want a proof for my existence? Is that going to lead you towards happiness, in any way? Is the answer to this question, in any way, helpful for making you happier?
libertygrl
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Posted 03/13/11 - 11:12 PM:

bravo, i'm inclined to ask similarly: why do you need proof? it's apparently a question that has been given some fair amount of thought throughout the years, famously by descartes. but whenever the topic has come up, i've wondered all along why proof was needed. maybe you can help.
Monk2400
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Posted 03/14/11 - 1:20 AM:

What's the context of proving existence? And what is it that we are trying to prove exists? My physical body? I can think of a million ways to demonstrate its reality.

My mind? My words in this forum should be evidence that at least something lies behind the screen generating responses and endless text.

My person? The government of my country says such a thing exists, as it incorporated my entity when my birth certificate was signed. And, unlike Obama, I can produce a copy. sisyphus

So what of it?

What part of your own existence are you sceptical about?

Doesn't the very act of thinking that you might not exist prove that you do exist, at least to think that thought?

8)
smokinpristiformis
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Posted 03/14/11 - 4:31 AM:

I write on thecouchforum, ergo sum !
Thinker13
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Posted 03/14/11 - 4:31 AM:

Monk2400 wrote:
What's the context of proving existence? And what is it that we are trying to prove exists? My physical body? I can think of a million ways to demonstrate its reality.

My mind? My words in this forum should be evidence that at least something lies behind the screen generating responses and endless text.

My person? The government of my country says such a thing exists, as it incorporated my entity when my birth certificate was signed. And, unlike Obama, I can produce a copy. sisyphus

So what of it?

What part of your own existence are you sceptical about?

Doesn't the very act of thinking that you might not exist prove that you do exist, at least to think that thought?

8)


There should be a subject to whom this thought 'Do I exist' occurs, though, any thought, cannot be a proof of a continuous being because thoughts are always transient and they subside as soon as they arise. If you go on searching mind...you will not find it either; because it arises in time and subsides..that is why meditation allows you gaps in mind stream...when you go on searching mind...it ceases to exist...thought searching for itself becomes the cause for its slowing down and ultimately for its cessation ( temporarily) you still exist..in gaps..
Monk2400
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#10 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/14/11 - 12:58 PM:

Well the mind can't find itself because it is itself. Apperception is always a kind of seeing the self at a distance, which means holding it abstractly before oneself to see it. So one can't prove one's existence as a kind of search-and-find-the-mind. One can only exist!
Thinker13
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#11 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/15/11 - 5:34 AM:

Monk2400 wrote:
Well the mind can't find itself because it is itself. Apperception is always a kind of seeing the self at a distance, which means holding it abstractly before oneself to see it. So one can't prove one's existence as a kind of search-and-find-the-mind. One can only exist!


Indeed. Drashta perspective. I agree.peace
henry quirk
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#12 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/15/11 - 8:55 AM:

"Well the mind can't find itself because it is itself."

If 'mind' were an element separate from its container (body/brain): I'd agree.

But 'mind' is what body/brain does...if I want to find myself I can look at 'me' (the flesh), that is: my eyes apprehend 'me'; I can touch 'me' (the flesh), that is: my hands apprehend 'me'; I can hear 'me' (the flesh), that is: my ears apprehend 'me'; I can smell 'me' (the flesh), that is: my nose apprehends 'me'.

As I am wholly material: I can apprehend my 'self' by way of my 'self'.

Now: apprehending my thinking is slightly, but not significantly, different. I can't touch my thinking (because it is an internal 'action'), but I can be aware of it and -- in the awareness -- alter it and the external actions that extend from it.

If I'm horny: I can be aware of that impulse, of the physical changes in 'me', of the hot little number at the check out who inspires the impulse and so on...in that awareness of my horniness I can choose how to proceed...I can chat up the hot little number, I can simply do nothing, I can excuse myself and 'take things into my own hands', and so on.

I have little control over the cascade of physiologic triggers that result in 'horny', but I certainly can choose how to direct that impulse.

There's a recurring number on the kid's show, 'Blue's Clues', that captures this perfectly: "...and when we use our minds and take a step out of time, we can do anything that we want to do...".

That expression also has some bearing on *Peacegirl's thread about 'free will' and whatnot.



*As an aside: 'free will' is a fiction...agency/autonomy/self-deliberation/self-possession is real.

I hold 'me' responsible (as I have every good reason to).
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