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A revolution in thought

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peacegirl
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Posted 03/12/11 - 3:45 PM:
Subject: A revolution in thought
Hi everyone,

I wanted to share with the members a book that is truly revolutionary in thought. This knowledge leads to an alteration of environmental conditions, making war an impossibility, and therefore redefines what was possible at an earlier time.
libertygrl
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Posted 03/12/11 - 3:52 PM:

hi peacegirl, welcome. what is the book called?
peacegirl
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Posted 03/12/11 - 4:18 PM:

It's called Decline and Fall of All Evil. If you go here, it is the first thread. Once you click on the thread you have to scroll down a bit until you see the link to the book.

www.unco.edu/philosophy/cur...orums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=5
libertygrl
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Posted 03/12/11 - 7:42 PM:

looks more like you're here to publicize a philosophy forum. which is fine, you're welcome to share the link. but if you want to discuss the book itself, it might be more helpful to link to it directly.
peacegirl
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Posted 03/12/11 - 8:01 PM:

Here is the link straight to the book:

www.unco.edu/philosophy/cur...line_and_Fall_3-9-2011.pdf
libertygrl
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Posted 03/12/11 - 8:34 PM:

are you the author of the book?
Monk2400
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Posted 03/12/11 - 8:43 PM:

Wow 589 pages. How about telling us what this fantastic breakthrough is?

raised eyebrow
peacegirl
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Posted 03/12/11 - 9:04 PM:

libertygrl wrote:
are you the author of the book?


No, but you are on the right track. I compiled the author's 7 books after his death in 1991.
peacegirl
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Posted 03/12/11 - 9:05 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:
Wow 589 pages. How about telling us what this fantastic breakthrough is?

raised eyebrow


This discovery lies locked behind the door of determinism.
Zenoplata
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Posted 03/13/11 - 1:46 AM:

Hm, haven't recent breakthroughs in physics been strongly opposed to determinism?

I think questions of cause and effect are very much losing their relevance in philosophy and becoming topics of science.
peacegirl
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Posted 03/13/11 - 6:59 AM:

Zenoplata wrote:
Hm, haven't recent breakthroughs in physics been strongly opposed to determinism?

I think questions of cause and effect are very much losing their relevance in philosophy and becoming topics of science.


You're absolutely right, although this book was borne out of philosophical thought. The argument of free will vs. determinism has been, up until now, one of the most difficult discussions in philosophy. Now that determinism is being accepted by science (although this author has a different proof than what is being offered by the biological sciences), it will be easier to move forward to show how the implications of this knowledge can be used for the betterment of all mankind. Regardless of its relevance to philosophy at this point, the idea that global peace is possible (scientifically)would probably interest most people, considering the state of our world.


Edited by peacegirl on 03/13/11 - 7:04 AM
Zenoplata
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Posted 03/13/11 - 11:39 AM:

No, no. I believe that popular Science has been making the case -against- determinism.

If the universe were truly deterministic wouldn't possibility be a moot point? Since there would only be one state of things possible at any given moment, why would we assume world peace can be "achieved?" That is, if anything can be achieved at all.
peacegirl
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Posted 03/13/11 - 2:07 PM:

Zenoplata wrote:
No, no. I believe that popular Science has been making the case -against- determinism.

If the universe were truly deterministic wouldn't possibility be a moot point? Since there would only be one state of things possible at any given moment, why would we assume world peace can be "achieved?" That is, if anything can be achieved at all.


Because man's ultimate nature has not been fully understood. Once we learn for a fact that man's will is not free, we can prevent from coming back that for which blame and punishment were previously necessary. The knowledge that man's will is not free is the gateway that leads to this discovery. The author writes:

"This natural law, which
reveals a fantastic mankind system, was hidden so successfully
behind a camouflage of ostensible truths that no wonder it wasn’t
found until now. But by demonstrating its power a catalyst, so to
speak, is introduced which compels this fantastic change in the
direction our nature has been traveling, performing what will be
called miracles though they do not transcend the laws of nature.
The same nature that allowed Hitler to slaughter six million Jews,
that permits the most heinous crimes and all the other evils of
human relation is going to veer so sharply in a different direction
that all nations on this planet, once the leaders and their
subordinates understand the principles involved, will unite in such
a way that no more wars will ever again be possible. Laugh if you
will but your smile of incredulity will be wiped from your face
once you begin to read the text
chapter by chapter of which the first two are most fundamental."
Thinker13
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Posted 03/13/11 - 2:30 PM:

peacegirl wrote:


Because man's ultimate nature has not been fully understood. Once we learn for a fact that man's will is not free, we can prevent from coming back that for which blame and punishment were previously necessary. The knowledge that man's will is not free is the gateway that leads to this discovery. The author writes:

"This natural law, which
reveals a fantastic mankind system, was hidden so successfully
behind a camouflage of ostensible truths that no wonder it wasn’t
found until now. But by demonstrating its power a catalyst, so to
speak, is introduced which compels this fantastic change in the
direction our nature has been traveling, performing what will be
called miracles though they do not transcend the laws of nature.
The same nature that allowed Hitler to slaughter six million Jews,
that permits the most heinous crimes and all the other evils of
human relation is going to veer so sharply in a different direction
that all nations on this planet, once the leaders and their
subordinates understand the principles involved, will unite in such
a way that no more wars will ever again be possible. Laugh if you
will but your smile of incredulity will be wiped from your face
once you begin to read the text
chapter by chapter of which the first two are most fundamental."



My honest feedback: I do not find anything new in the book or in the Philosophy. I am not inclined to read the book nor am inclined to publicize it. My opinions might be very pre-mature but somehow I feel intuitively that this book has nothing to offer as far as my understanding of determinism and free will is concerned. Thanks. zen
peacegirl
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Posted 03/13/11 - 2:44 PM:

That's your preogative. It is unfortunate though that you would so quickly jump to this conclusion without doing the necessary reading.
Monk2400
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Posted 03/13/11 - 3:08 PM:

Do I really need to wade through two chapters of excessive and unnecessary wandering verbiage to discover this wonderful 'secret' that has, in the history of human kind, only occurred to one person?

dozey

Why not just tell us what the principle is so we can reflect on it? Surely its more important to promote the idea than the book. I mean, Einstein's theory is expressed in 5 symbols. Thats a fair bit less that 589 PAGES.

rolling eyes
peacegirl
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Posted 03/13/11 - 3:32 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:
Do I really need to wade through two chapters of excessive and unnecessary wandering verbiage to discover this wonderful 'secret' that has, in the history of human kind, only occurred to one person?

dozey

Why not just tell us what the principle is so we can reflect on it? Surely its more important to promote the idea than the book. I mean, Einstein's theory is expressed in 5 symbols. Thats a fair bit less that 589 PAGES.

rolling eyes


It's not about reading the extension of this knowledge, which comprises Chapter Three to Eleven. It's about understanding the foundation, which is very succinctly expressed in Chapters One and Two. No, it cannot be reduced to a few words. What is so difficult about carefully reading two chapters? By the end of them, you should be able to understand why man's will is not free, and what the discovery is, which is NOT that man's will is not free. And pray tell me, where did you find wandering verbiage? And how would you know it's wandering verbiage if you don't know what the book is about?
Thinker13
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Posted 03/13/11 - 3:37 PM:

peacegirl wrote:
That's your preogative. It is unfortunate though that you would so quickly jump to this conclusion without doing the necessary reading.


May be you are right. I do not feel unfortunate though. I also do not feel that I have been too quick to jump to this conclusion, because, I rarely find a book ( these days I do not find in fact!) , which strikes me as a 'new book'. The excerpt given does not help much in reinforcing me a motivation to read...so may be...
peacegirl
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Posted 03/13/11 - 3:54 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:


May be you are right. I do not feel unfortunate though. I also do not feel that I have been too quick to jump to this conclusion, because, I rarely find a book ( these days I do not find in fact!) , which strikes me as a 'new book'. The excerpt given does not help much in reinforcing me a motivation to read...so may be...


You say you rarely find a book which strikes you as a new book. Well, this might be one of those rare times because this knowledge is unprecedented. I don't really feel the need to hard sell the book. It speaks for itself if you choose to read it. It's a very interesting read whether or not you come away agreeing with the author, or not agreeing at all. But one thing is for certain: If you don't read this book with an open mind, you will never know what you may be missing in terms of new knowledge.
Thinker13
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Posted 03/13/11 - 4:28 PM:

peacegirl wrote:


You say you rarely find a book which strikes you as a new book. Well, this might be one of those rare times because this knowledge is unprecedented. I don't really feel the need to hard sell the book. It speaks for itself if you choose to read it. It's a very interesting read whether or not you come away agreeing with the author, or not agreeing at all. But one thing is for certain: If you don't read this book with an open mind, you will never know what you may be missing in terms of new knowledge.


Spent some time with the book. Can tell you something about many chapters. Now please, please and please, do not ask me to read it thoroughly. The book is 'an average book', by any standard. It has no hidden secret in it. I am not saying that it is 'utter non-sense' but you can certainly do something better than reading this book in the name of a new secret! THOU SHALL NOT BLAME!!!!
I better recommend you 'Tao Te Ching' or 'I AM THAT' or 'Bhagvad Geeta'. Thank you.
peacegirl
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Posted 03/13/11 - 5:38 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:


Spent some time with the book. Can tell you something about many chapters. Now please, please and please, do not ask me to read it thoroughly. The book is 'an average book', by any standard. It has no hidden secret in it. I am not saying that it is 'utter non-sense' but you can certainly do something better than reading this book in the name of a new secret! THOU SHALL NOT BLAME!!!!
I better recommend you 'Tao Te Ching' or 'I AM THAT' or 'Bhagvad Geeta'. Thank you.


Obviously, you took this phrase out of context. Gandhi said the same thing as well as many others. What separates this knowledge from the others is the two-sided equation. You will not be satified until you convince yourself NOT TO READ THIS BOOK. I AM GIVING YOU PERMISSION!!!
Monk2400
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Posted 03/13/11 - 7:09 PM:

Here's the whole jist of the thing (and what do you know, it IS possible to state it in a single sentence sisyphus ):

"SINCE MAN’S WILL IS NOT FREE, THOU SHALL NOT BLAME ANYTHING HE DOES." (68)



There's nothing new or remarkable about this. Philosophers have been debating determinism for milennia. Most reject determinism because of the moral consequences. Others reject it because the position itself seems incoherent on some level.

If determinism is a fact, then there is no such thing as 'morality' in the traditional sense. And of course, no such thing as responsibility. Or, put a better way, only God is responsible for anything that happens.

Thus God is responsible for all the births and horrible, horrible deaths, the nice things and the gruesome things. No individual is responsible for these events, even if they are participants, because they are only parts of the causal chain and not instigators or initiators of it.

Here's some more of the idea:


“Since it is absolutely impossible (this is the reasoning of
mathematics, not logic, which gives rise to opinions) not to choose B instead of A once B has been selected, how is it possible to choose A in this comparison of possibilities when in order to make this choice you must not choose B, which has already been chosen?”

“Again I must admit it is something impossible to do.”

“Yet in order to prove free will true, it must do just that — the impossible. It must go back, reverse the order of time, undo what has already been done, and then show that A — with the conditions being exactly the same — could have been chosen instead of B. Since it is utterly impossible to reverse the order of time, which is absolutely necessary for mathematical proof, free will must always remain a theory. The most you can say is that you believe the bank robber had a choice, but there is absolutely no way this can be proven.” (31-32)


Unfortunately, I don't think the writer has much idea of what constitutes 'mathematics' or 'logic'. But aside from that, the reasoning is pretty straightforward.

There is no free choice because reality is what it is. History is what it is and cannot be changed; there is a direct causal path of one action to another, one event to another, and no indication of 'possibility' in that chain of events, hence no way to justify that things 'could have been different'.

However, the immutability of the past has never been in question. It is the unpredictable nature of the present moment that is at issue. The razor's edge is where all freedom takes place. In order to prove that human beings (or any agent for that matter) are not free it is necessary that one PROVE that spontaneous action cannot exist.

Is this proven in the book, I ask?


The problem with all deterministic theories is that they cannot advocate change. They can only be descriptive at best. Because if determinism is true then things will only be as they are, and become as they will become. There is no such thing as 'anticipating the future' because the essence of reality is fixed.

In other words, such theories cannot be prescriptive.

At best people can digest them with apathy, since nothing they do will affect the nature of reality. Either war and death will continue endlessly or not. Since the path of reality is fixed, there's no sense bothering about it. Changing the status quo is not necessary. In fact, change, REAL CHANGE, is impossible.



“I am not a college graduate, and I can even see that relation.” (76)


LOL.

8)
Monk2400
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Posted 03/13/11 - 7:11 PM:

God is a very inefficient chap as a creator. He's always building a big universe but making sure it doesn't function correctly for endless millennia just so it can eventually correct itself. To what end? Only for his pleasure at producing equal amounts of bliss and suffering.

rolling eyes
Thinker13
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Posted 03/13/11 - 11:47 PM:

peacegirl wrote:


Obviously, you took this phrase out of context. Gandhi said the same thing as well as many others. What separates this knowledge from the others is the two-sided equation. You will not be satified until you convince yourself NOT TO READ THIS BOOK. I AM GIVING YOU PERMISSION!!!


Quite the contrary. I think I am the first person on this forum who has read a few chapters from the book. I am sure that this is in no way a special book. My apologies. smiling face
Monk2400
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Posted 03/14/11 - 1:15 AM:

Another curious thing about determinism which just occurs to me is that it negates causality. That is, causality does not exist in a deterministic universe.

Counter-intuitive, yes, but true.

The reason is that a deterministic universe is actually static. It doesn't really move or change. It is written and completed at the outset.

A deterministic universe is like a novel. It only exists from cover to cover, and it does not nor can it possibly deviate from the series of words contained therein. It is written once and is unchangeable for all time. But nothing really 'happens' relative to the book. There is no real motion, no movement in timespace, no interactions, no physicality, etc. You can't really say that one character's actions in the first chapter 'cause' effects in the next chapter.

A novel, though we can break it down into component pieces, has no working 'parts'.

Neither does a deterministic universe.

Hence, causality is negated (i.e. it is a meaningless concept).

8)
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