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Of Murder?

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Zenoplata
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#76 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/09/11 - 8:57 PM:

I don't know if moral nihilism and solipsism are a fair comparison.

I agree with you, do what feels right and feels good. Why? For the sake of doing it, not for some imaginary ideal, God or moral code.

Do things matter to me? Yes. Will I defend them? Yes. Do I expect other people to do the same? Sure.

And we come around to the social contract idea of morality. You don't mess with me, and I won't mess with you. Beyond that there isn't really much to ethics. I suppose it's a nice thing to tell children to get them to behave, but it doesn't have a much deeper meaning than our agreement to play nice.
libertygrl
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#77 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/09/11 - 9:01 PM:

Z wrote:
I don't know if moral nihilism and solipsism are a fair comparison.

never said they were identical. just pointing out a parallel which is, essentially, that you have to draw a line somewhere, so you can go on functioning with your life.

agreeing to play nice works for me.
Zenoplata
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#78 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/09/11 - 9:04 PM:

I agree there needs to be some sort of consistency in the world in order to achieve anything, be it as simple as feeding oneself.

The basis for this consistency just doesn't need to be some sort of phony (in my opinion) ideal, virtue or God.
libertygrl
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#79 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/09/11 - 9:13 PM:

Z wrote:
I agree there needs to be some sort of consistency in the world in order to achieve anything

consistency is an ideal. there's nothing phony about it, or about any ideal, as far as i'm concerned. they are what they are, which is, in short: the way we want things to be.

people can express ideals and not bother trying to achieve them. you can call that phony, sure. i would agree. but wanting things to be a certain way is just how you feel, it's very simple. what's ideal to you, for example, is not having government subsidized healthcare. giving it a name only makes it easier to talk about. it makes it easier to find other people who agree with you, and the strength of your numbers may make an important difference in making the world into the kind of place you would prefer.
Zenoplata
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#80 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/09/11 - 9:20 PM:

Abstracts are good for just that, communication.

We would not be able to communicate with each other if we were not using abstracts in speech.

If you want to name your personal preference, go for it. Call it an ideal if you want. I'm trying to differentiate between personal preference and the concept of ideals, or virtues which exist which are things we should aspire to.

That is, I'm trying to differentiate between a system of preference based social contract ethics and something along the lines of Aristotle's virtue ethics.

We may just use the word 'ideal' a bit differently.
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#81 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/09/11 - 9:22 PM:

i see. sounds like it would make for an interesting topic of its own.
Thinker13
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#82 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/09/11 - 11:41 PM:

Right, acceptable for society. Or you if you deem it so, or me if I deem it so. There is no equation to follow, no matter of truth to be discovered. The acceptability of killing is based entirely on the subjective interpretation of the the action.

Who decides benefit for society? I suppose whoever decides what benefit actually means.

I would guess what Quirk would say would be that what Quirk deems fit Quirk will do. Which I would agree with if that were the case.

I was quoting only a particular sentence for the purpose of that sentence structurally only. Please don't try to make it out as if I were advocating my own opinions for someone else without their consent.


Perfectly clear. Why do you hate smiley faces, if i may ask?
Zenoplata
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#83 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/10/11 - 12:07 AM:

They always have this condescending, smug look.

I suppose Forrest Gump didn't mean that when he invented them, though.
Thinker13
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#84 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/10/11 - 12:43 AM:

Zenoplata wrote:
They always have this condescending, smug look.

I suppose Forrest Gump didn't mean that when he invented them, though.


May be. I have often found smileys helpful in conveying more than the words do.
smokinpristiformis
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#85 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/10/11 - 10:41 AM:

You keep saying, "advancing" "growing" "flourishing." Towards what? What's the endgame?


A fair question. I take humanist and utilitarian views on this subject. I think all this is a quite extraordinary feat. The dice fell just so that you and I and the rest of humanity were born to be a gazillion times more intelligent than anything in a radius of what - a hundred, a million, a million million million lightyears? Who knows? And we've developed to the point that there's really no reason why we should ever go anywhere but forward in the field of technology and general development as long as we're smart about it.

There's so much value in that. Our potential is immense. We, in this day and age, could be the start of a virtually limitless human population which lives happily and limitlessly beneath the stars. Just imagine. smiling face

And just so you know: My smilies are always meant well.
smokinpristiformis
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#86 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/10/11 - 10:54 AM:

Justice is vague. Equality is vague. Rights are vague.


Food is vague. Security is vague. Sex is vague. Shelter is vague. I suppose we can all imagine some concrete examples of each, though?

You have the right to post on this board, right now, and give your opinion regardless of what any idiot* thinks of it. That's not vague at all.



*Except if that idiot is libs who will give you a spanking if you cross the line, but let's, for the sake of the argument, not go there.**

** Amazing. Those footnotes are contagious. :o

Zenoplata
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#87 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/10/11 - 4:51 PM:

smokinpristiformis wrote:


Food is vague. Security is vague. Sex is vague. Shelter is vague. I suppose we can all imagine some concrete examples of each, though?

You have the right to post on this board, right now, and give your opinion regardless of what any idiot* thinks of it. That's not vague at all.



*Except if that idiot is libs who will give you a spanking if you cross the line, but let's, for the sake of the argument, not go there.**

** Amazing. Those footnotes are contagious. :o



Words are inherently abstract. Yes, chair is vague, however the purpose of the word is to grant us the ability to communicate about particulars. If I point to a chair and say, "This chair" I'm not talking about an independent concept of chair which we have created in our imaginations, I am just communicating about a particular thing.

When you say justice, there is no particular thing which it is symbolic of. You may say people can be just, but the particular thing is still the people, not justice. You may say an action is just, but the particular thing is still an action, not justice.

Abstract entities do not exist independently of particular things. There are no virtues that exist out there for us to work towards. Sure, you may have a concept in your mind of what an ideal society would be, but that's just your preference.
libertygrl
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#88 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/10/11 - 6:09 PM:

smokinpristiformis wrote:
*Except if that idiot is libs who will give you a spanking if you cross the line, but let's, for the sake of the argument, not go there.**

oh for goodness sake, no spanking should be expected on my part. and preferably, no idiocy either.

Z wrote:
When you say justice, there is no particular thing which it is symbolic of.

i disagree. the word justice is symbolic of actions and events which produce a certain sensation, one of fairness, this represents a concrete feeling which has value to me. i can talk about it abstractly, or i can talk about it in specific contexts, whatever the need may be. what it represents does not change. it may be subjective, but it's not vague. and it is a concept with which other people are capable of familiarity.
Zenoplata
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#89 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/10/11 - 7:33 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

oh for goodness sake, no spanking should be expected on my part. and preferably, no idiocy either.


i disagree. the word justice is symbolic of actions and events which produce a certain sensation, one of fairness, this represents a concrete feeling which has value to me. i can talk about it abstractly, or i can talk about it in specific contexts, whatever the need may be. what it represents does not change. it may be subjective, but it's not vague. and it is a concept with which other people are capable of familiarity.


There are particular actions and particular circumstances which you in your human interpretation of the world consider similar and have lumped together using your language.

This is different than a stand-alone concept of Justice.

Still, it in no way translates to what we ought to do, only what you would prefer for us to do based upon your particular feelings.

It's important to make the differentiation because Virtue ethics claims there are specific abstract entities which are inherently good that man ought to aspire to.

There are no abstract things, only particular things which we label with abstract language in order to communicate ideas about them to one another.

Zenoplata
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#90 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/10/11 - 7:34 PM:

But, let me get this right.

So justice is a particular feeling which you experience, and based upon that principle we ought to aspire to replicating that feeling for you based upon its own sake?

libertygrl
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#91 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/10/11 - 7:45 PM:

Z wrote:
do what feels right and feels good. Why? For the sake of doing it

i think what you said here pretty much sums it up. i mean sure, i like justice, justice makes me feel good, justice makes me feel right, let's pursue that feeling, let's make it happen more often. i don't know what you mean by "doing it for its own sake", it seems like the phrasing creates an idea that is unnecessarily abstract. does justice have value? yes or no. that, to me, is the question. and for me, the answer is yes, it does. is it real? yes. imaginary? no.
Zenoplata
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#92 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/10/11 - 7:54 PM:

I just think it confuses the subject to say a particular feeling is "justice." Call it what you wish, and the way you describe your personal ethics I have no qualms with.

I just wanted to make it clear that I take a philosophical stand against Virtue based ethics.
libertygrl
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#93 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/10/11 - 8:02 PM:

Z wrote:
I just think it confuses the subject to say a particular feeling is "justice."

seems clear as day to me.

Z wrote:
I just wanted to make it clear that I take a philosophical stand against Virtue based ethics.

that seems clear too. why don't we start another topic, so this one can go back to being about murder. or is it still relevant to murder?
smokinpristiformis
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#94 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/11/11 - 9:20 AM:

libertygrl wrote:

oh for goodness sake, no spanking should be expected on my part. and preferably, no idiocy either.



Merely a gentle tease, miss Susan. smiling face


Justice should happen because we feel good about it though. Justice should happen because it's useful. (To create a safer social environment (dimension?), for example.)
libertygrl
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#95 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/11/11 - 12:32 PM:

smokinpristiformis wrote:
Merely a gentle tease, miss Susan. smiling face

no worries smiling face

Justice should happen because we feel good about it though. Justice should happen because it's useful. (To create a safer social environment (dimension?), for example.)

posted a response to this in the is life fair? topic.
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