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Religion and Philosophers

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thedoc
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#26 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/13/11 - 7:55 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:

[ I do wonder if I am indulging in Sophistry again]smiling face



Oh, please do so, if nothing else, it's fun to watch.
JrnymnX
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#27 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/13/11 - 8:04 PM:

henry quirk wrote:

And still: there is 'education' and there is 'indoctrination'.


Sometimes the difference between the two is too subtle for me.


The distinction between religion and philosophy for me mirrors that between indoctrination and education. A lot of grey shades and overlap between them.

At their root both religion and philosophy are attempts to make sense of life. Only after 'sense' has been made can the work of brow beating others into agreeing with your 'sense' and the ensuing patting you on the back for your great wisdom and insight begin in earnest.
Thinker13
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#28 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/14/11 - 11:52 AM:

thedoc wrote:



Oh, please do so, if nothing else, it's fun to watch.



takes a bow
Thinker13
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#29 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/14/11 - 11:55 AM:

JrnymnX wrote:


Sometimes the difference between the two is too subtle for me.


The distinction between religion and philosophy for me mirrors that between indoctrination and education. A lot of grey shades and overlap between them.

At their root both religion and philosophy are attempts to make sense of life. Only after 'sense' has been made can the work of brow beating others into agreeing with your 'sense' and the ensuing patting you on the back for your great wisdom and insight begin in earnest.



If I am permitted to blabber 'off-topic' for a while, I must admit that I am so pleased to see you back here. I unfortunately joined MPG when you had stopped posting there [ If you are the same JrnymnX, who used to post over there!]but I had a great time reading your old posts over there .Welcome back!hug


JrnymnX
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#30 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/17/11 - 7:30 AM:

Can you dip your toe in the same river twice?
If so I am the same.
Thank you for the wb, nice to see you too. smiling face
Thinker13
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#31 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/17/11 - 9:40 AM:

JrnymnX wrote:
Can you dip your toe in the same river twice?
If so I am the same.
Thank you for the wb, nice to see you too. smiling face


No. I did not mean in the ZEN sense. smiling face
henry quirk
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#32 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 01/19/12 - 2:47 PM:

bumpy update (making things visible again)
Thinker13
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#33 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 01/19/12 - 3:15 PM:

henry quirk wrote:
bumpy update (making things visible again)



Yes, it did the trick!
Monk2400
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#34 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/05/12 - 2:19 PM:

Religion and philosophy are separate and distinct.

It may happen occasionally that a person who identifies as a 'philosopher' becomes the founder of a religion, but certainly in western history this is not the typical case.

In the past 2000 years the origins of religion are clear. They often come from un- or under-educated persons who have received a revelation of some sort--a message from beyond, an angel, the Divine itself, an alien or disembodied spirit from caveman days. And those that are educated that deliberately create religions ought to be looked upon with suspicion for their true political motives.

Philosophers in the western sense put logic and rationality first and seek, at a minimum, to live the examined life using the natural rational faculties to their fullest.

Religion is a striking departure from this.

It demands the abandonment of reason and examination and the adoption of faith--in a principle or a charismatic figure or deity.

Even Buddhism is not immune here. It is a bit of a stretch to call the historical Buddha a 'philosopher', even if we can look at some teachings of Buddhism as being reasonable. In the end, intellectualization that characterizes philosophy is just as much to be avoided in Buddhism as any western religion, even if for slightly different reasons.

The path of thinking leads nowhere, and not even to the good 'no where' that Buddhism is directing you. This is why the zen master burns the record books, because no amount of words and concepts contain the true truth.

However, to see things in this light, then, we can say that philosophy is a moment in the development of religion.

That is, that all truly great philosophers become religious once they reach--as they inevitably will--the terminal point of philosophical (intellectual) inquiry.

Because at that point it is clear that true inquiry must go beyond concepts, beyond words, beyond even forms, into the heart of Being itself. And therein lies the transcendental, blissfull, the revelational, and the source for all deeply felt religious feeling.

8)
Thinker13
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#35 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/05/12 - 2:52 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:
Religion and philosophy are separate and distinct.

It may happen occasionally that a person who identifies as a 'philosopher' becomes the founder of a religion, but certainly in western history this is not the typical case.

In the past 2000 years the origins of religion are clear. They often come from un- or under-educated persons who have received a revelation of some sort--a message from beyond, an angel, the Divine itself, an alien or disembodied spirit from caveman days. And those that are educated that deliberately create religions ought to be looked upon with suspicion for their true political motives.

Philosophers in the western sense put logic and rationality first and seek, at a minimum, to live the examined life using the natural rational faculties to their fullest.

Religion is a striking departure from this.

It demands the abandonment of reason and examination and the adoption of faith--in a principle or a charismatic figure or deity.

Even Buddhism is not immune here. It is a bit of a stretch to call the historical Buddha a 'philosopher', even if we can look at some teachings of Buddhism as being reasonable. In the end, intellectualization that characterizes philosophy is just as much to be avoided in Buddhism as any western religion, even if for slightly different reasons.

The path of thinking leads nowhere, and not even to the good 'no where' that Buddhism is directing you. This is why the zen master burns the record books, because no amount of words and concepts contain the true truth.

However, to see things in this light, then, we can say that philosophy is a moment in the development of religion.

That is, that all truly great philosophers become religious once they reach--as they inevitably will--the terminal point of philosophical (intellectual) inquiry.

Because at that point it is clear that true inquiry must go beyond concepts, beyond words, beyond even forms, into the heart of Being itself. And therein lies the transcendental, blissfull, the revelational, and the source for all deeply felt religious feeling.

8)





Buddha was a thinker, but as you say not a pure thinker and I think there is nothing like a pure thinker. I read somewhere that Buddha used to avoid some questions. Whenever someone used to ask about certain things, he avoided answering.

Reincarnation is one thing which is required to explain effect of Karma and its role in bondage, suffering and finally in liberation. Buddha could not give a proof for reincarnation( Neither he needed to give methinks!). I think that it was his assumption to explain other things and there has been none who has clearly demonstrated that reincarnation is indeed true. But Buddhism and Hinduism don't work well if you take reincarnation away from them.
Monk2400
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#36 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/05/12 - 7:30 PM:

Re-birth. Remember, there is no self that exists through multiple 'incarnations'. Once we clarify that, then all we have is the law of cause and effect, and bondage is simply bondage to cause and effect, ie, being subject to the laws of nature.

A buddha, perhaps, is one who is somehow able to transcend this order of causation, to cease being controlled by it, and initiate hesh own order which begins and ends with hesh existence, hence, extinction.

8)
Thinker13
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#37 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/05/12 - 11:40 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:
Re-birth. Remember, there is no self that exists through multiple 'incarnations'. Once we clarify that, then all we have is the law of cause and effect, and bondage is simply bondage to cause and effect, ie, being subject to the laws of nature.

A buddha, perhaps, is one who is somehow able to transcend this order of causation, to cease being controlled by it, and initiate hesh own order which begins and ends with hesh existence, hence, extinction.

8)



I know that you know it but for sake of clarifying it: Reading your words makes me think that a Buddha is an achiever or a self, which contradicts the point that there is no self.
Monk2400
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#38 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/06/12 - 2:42 AM:

heh, well i guess a buddha is more of a phenomenon or even an event.

8)
Soft Wind
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#39 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/23/12 - 12:34 AM:

it is so heart braking to see that which was to give so much hope has spread so much suffering.

I had a near death a few years ago, i strongly recommend every one read moodys --Life after life"

and then after reading go sit for a few whole hours and think about what you read

You wait long enough, you will have a experiance.

mean while i pray to god to protect me from those who bark and demand about god.shaking headshaking headshaking headshaking headshaking head
thedoc
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#40 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/23/12 - 8:59 AM:

The only problem with a NDE is, does the individual preceive what is there, or is it what they 'expect and want' to see? Are these experiences merely self-fufilling prophecies based on what has been heard or read from others?
Thinker13
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#41 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/23/12 - 9:03 AM:

thedoc wrote:
The only problem with a NDE is, does the individual preceive what is there, or is it what they 'expect and want' to see? Are these experiences merely self-fufilling prophecies based on what has been heard or read from others?



Most pertinent question. thumb up
thedoc
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#42 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/23/12 - 9:10 AM:

Those who have such an experience will be convinced that it was 'real', after all they were 'there' and they know what they know.
Soft Wind
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#43 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/25/12 - 2:22 AM:

DEAR DOC

"Enpathic Ability" is now in th works as the way to judge the serverity of all mental desease.

in short, if you can love and understand another better then most.

fine, that ****horn growing out of the middle of your head is no problem.

* i have three horns my self.
Soft Wind
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#44 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/25/12 - 2:33 AM:

The only problem with a NDE is, does the individual preceive what is there, or is it what they 'expect and want' to see? Are these experiences merely self-fufilling prophecies based on what has been heard or read from others?

please don't believe a word i say, would never want to disturb your own doubts, as it is a bad karma to turn around a depressed pissimist.

did i spell that right?

NED's Are like Mcdonalds hamburgers

over 5 million served

but do you want to go there"

laughinglaughinglaughinglaughinglaughinglaughinglaughinglaughing

Got to take your side dude, after a little humor here.

after life under the "borderline personality disorder regime" of earth, I would never believe there is a more hopeful deal ahead.

makes no sense.

based on illusion.
Soft Wind
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#45 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/25/12 - 2:39 AM:

Re-birth. Remember, there is no self that exists through multiple 'incarnations'. Once we clarify that, then all we have is the law of cause and effect, and bondage is simply bondage to cause and effect, ie, being subject to the laws of nature.

A buddha, perhaps, is one who is somehow able to transcend this order of causation, to cease being controlled by it, and initiate hesh own order which begins and ends with hesh existence, hence, extinction.



hahahahahaha

in short--

self is a tiny god self temporarally pissed.

but mature self is of your inner god, only its butt ass reactions are of evil.

its sublime reactions even the big """you"" in the sky listens to,

god being alive and still growing her self and you being made up of his very substance.

when your relitives give good advice you listen too!

thedoc
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#46 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/25/12 - 7:53 AM:

Soft Wind wrote:

hahahahahaha

when your relitives give good advice you listen too!



The dificulty is knowing the differense between 'good advice' and 'bad advice'. Everyone thinks their own advice is good but many people don't understand as much as they think they know.
Soft Wind
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#47 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 03/27/12 - 12:28 AM:

I think the most important thing to be happy is to except the world.

my country is so lizard centered these days i can not except it.

I have decided there for the most important thing now is to control the quality of those images that come in to my life.

I just am too old to look at ugly any more.

but you know, I find the beauty to be found these days is the best beautiful there ever was

like this below-----

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8CUJVqnt6k


heartheartheartheartheartheartheartheartheartheartheartheartheartheartheartheartheartheart
thedoc
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#48 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 04/13/12 - 9:08 AM:

Soft Wind wrote:

I think the most important thing to be happy is to except the world.



I believe this is at the core of many eastern religions and much of Mythology, It has been western religion and the Judeo/Christian Mythology that teaches seperation and the rejection of the world. However I do not believe this is the original teaching, but is a corruption that has been adopted later, possibly in conjunction with the patriarchal subjection of women in the Judeo/Christian religions. Evil and corupt are terms that do not apply to the natural world.
Thinker13
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#49 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 04/13/12 - 10:56 AM:

thedoc wrote:



I believe this is at the core of many eastern religions and much of Mythology, It has been western religion and the Judeo/Christian Mythology that teaches seperation and the rejection of the world. However I do not believe this is the original teaching, but is a corruption that has been adopted later, possibly in conjunction with the patriarchal subjection of women in the Judeo/Christian religions. Evil and corupt are terms that do not apply to the natural world.



I agree about the eastern religions. Advaita Vedanta goes further and says that if you realize, you're the world and total acceptance of the world makes it yours and harmony arises.
JrnymnX
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#50 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 04/13/12 - 7:43 PM:

thedoc wrote:
Evil and corupt are terms that do not apply to the natural world.


I am curious Thinker13 if you would agree with this as well?
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