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god of war

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libertygrl
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Posted 09/10/10 - 8:23 PM:
Subject: god of war
praxis wrote:
Well, if there were no need for war and everyone had everything that they desired, but God told us to kill each other anyway, for his entertainment or whatever, should we oblige him?

this question comes from the How is it my concern? thread.

the answer, of course, depends on how much we deem god an authority figure in our lives. i find it interesting, though, because to me it raises the question of what kind of criteria is needed in order to establish god as an authority figure.

what should it take for god to have this kind of authority, short of simply making people do god's bidding as puppets? would god be able to exercise this kind of authority over beings of free will? or does free will even exist anymore in this hypothetical scenario?

any thoughts?
Monk2400
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Posted 09/12/10 - 6:42 AM:

praxis wrote:

Well, if there were no need for war and everyone had everything that they desired, but God told us to kill each other anyway, for his entertainment or whatever, should we oblige him?


---

libertygrl wrote:

the answer, of course, depends on how much we deem god an authority figure in our lives...it raises the question of what kind of criteria is needed in order to establish god as an authority figure.

what should it take for god to have this kind of authority, short of simply making people do god's bidding as puppets? would god be able to exercise this kind of authority over beings of free will? or does free will even exist anymore in this hypothetical scenario?


---

God's authority is simple: Omniscience and omnipotence.

God is an unstoppable force. God creates and destroys worlds at will and whim. And, more importantly, God defines moral values and backs up his judgments with absolute power. Hence, God has a very long and perfectly accurate memory, and when God says he will do something, he will do it. If he says 'punishment for X' better believe it will happen.

But the question isn't really about God's authority so much as the origin of moral value.

The question itself reduces to the form 'why should we do anything at all?' The answer is ultimately that if we don't act, we die; and, as finite beings (of the type we are), our most natural instinct is to survive and continue.

No body wants to die or be annihilated or suffer eternal damnation. So if God is offering any of those things as the only alternative to doing what he asks, given his absolute power, our most natural instinct would be to do it.

Politically, in terms of relationships, moral values are imposed, propagated, and enforced by them with the biggest sticks. God's stick is always, by definition, the biggest. Hence he can, if he wants, define and redefine values on a whim.

Besides which, there is no inherent value attached to the event of humans killing each other. In terms of the total value to the universe, it is insignificant. Killing each other or propigating offspring--it's all the same to mother nature.

But if we want to say, as the question seems to, that we disagree with the act God asks of us, all we are doing is trying to assert of moral value over God's. It is a contest of wills. There is no final and absolute value that is true or correct--just the values determined and asserted by two axiological agents, one finite and one infinite.

So to recap:

1) Should we oblige God (in anything he asks)? Lest ye tempt his wrath, yes.
2) Is killing each other for sport morally wrong? There is no absolutely correct answer to this question. If God tells us it is wrong, it is wrong, and if he tells us it is ok, it is ok; similarly, apart from God's judgments, humans can judge this for themselves.

The thing is, that since God is the ultimate and absolute enforcer, even if God were both absolutely good and absolutely evil, and was always asking others to do evil things, others could only choose to comply or face whatever punishment/reward that God decides. IOW, they are powerless to stop an unstoppable force.

But no act/event is absolutely good or evil in itself.

Humans still have free will in relation to God's moral judgments; we can still disobey his commands. But we must be willing to face the consequences. Hey, we are free to drink a tall glass of battery acid too, but there's consequences to that, and us simply believing otherwise won't actually make it otherwise.

8)
libertygrl
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Posted 09/12/10 - 11:45 AM:

Monk wrote:
1) Should we oblige God (in anything he asks)? Lest ye tempt his wrath, yes.

it should be noted, though, that what some people think of as "the wrath of god", others may think of as simple natural disasters that have no causal connections to a god persona.

well, of course, to put it more simply, some people don't believe in god, and thus god has no authority over such people. or does god? could it be that such individuals do god's bidding while denying the existence of god? (i'm avoiding using a gendered pronoun here because i believe god is gender-neutral.) perhaps by calling god by another name, or denying that god can be labeled.

food for thought.
Thinker13
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Posted 09/12/10 - 12:06 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:


---



[quote=Monk2400]
God's authority is simple: Omniscience and omnipotence.

God is an unstoppable force. God creates and destroys worlds at will and whim. And, more importantly, God defines moral values and backs up his judgments with absolute power. Hence, God has a very long and perfectly accurate memory, and when God says he will do something, he will do it. If he says 'punishment for X' better believe it will happen.

Ultimate authority is that of the inventor of the GOD[like that of yours and Leibniz’s]. The creator of the God, with an eidetic memory has, a distinct advantage, a knack in general; more refined the intellect of the creator of the GOD, more multi-faceted the GOD is!




Monk2400 wrote:

No body wants to die or be annihilated or suffer eternal damnation. So if God is offering any of those things as the only alternative to doing what he asks, given his absolute power, our most natural instinct would be to do it.

Saying Halleluzah to someone else’s creation is not as good as creating an imaginary GOD yourself, with utmost of your integrity and entirety of your inventiveness, and then, imagining commands—this gives you the ‘Power Of a Prophet’—like Mohammad, Moses, Jesus, Zarathustra, Starzade or the other way around that first ‘power’ picks you up and you become the creator of ‘THE GOD’.

Monk2400 wrote:
Politically, in terms of relationships, moral values are imposed, propagated, and enforced by them with the biggest sticks. God's stick is always, by definition, the biggest. Hence he can, if he wants, define and redefine values on a whim.

Uberphilosphers come up with the toughest/biggest sticks. Uberphilosophers are most inventive. Still, the prophet has some charismatic current which overpowers the uberphilosopher, therefore, prophet’s GOD prevails!
praxis
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praxis
Posted 09/12/10 - 3:29 PM:

The question was meant to indicate that the concept of God (ultimate authority) is something that's used to fulfill human needs and desires, and that we are not God's puppets.

Terry Jones is a good example. If the pastor were a peaceful and contented man would God have told him to burn Qurans? If he were seriously interested in helping to reduce the likelihood of more terrorist attacks in the U.S. would not God have suggested an even slightly more intelligent approach? And yesterday Jones said, ""we feel that God is telling us to stop" the Quran burning. Seems kinda wishy-washy. I'm sure if Jones were asked about that he'd say that God was incomprehensible or works in mysterious ways.

On the other hand, maybe God had no interest in stoping terrorists and only wanted give Terry Jones some much deserved world attention. So he tells Jones something like, "hey, if you're really desperate for attention burn some Qurans on 9/11. That will really put you on the map!" And then later, "dude, wow, you're really looking like a world class idiot. You better stop now."
libertygrl
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Posted 09/12/10 - 11:45 PM:

praxis wrote:
On the other hand, maybe God had no interest in stoping terrorists and only wanted give Terry Jones some much deserved world attention. So he tells Jones something like, "hey, if you're really desperate for attention burn some Qurans on 9/11. That will really put you on the map!" And then later, "dude, wow, you're really looking like a world class idiot. You better stop now."

sounds plausible.

i'm glad to hear he's not going through with it.

Thinker wrote:
Saying Halleluzah to someone else’s creation is not as good as creating an imaginary GOD yourself

thumb upthumb up
henry quirk
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Posted 09/13/10 - 11:12 AM:

"...if there were no need for war and everyone had everything that they desired, but God told us to kill..."

1- There is, insofar as I can tell, no 'god'.

2-'We' kill (war) because we like it...resource scarcity is 'a' reason for war, but not the only reason, or even the most basic reason.

Fundamentally: 'we' kill each other 'cause we like killing each other.

There are, of course, exceptions, but these exceptions tend to die early and quickly, or, these exceptions surround themselves with killers so as to preach 'peace' unmolested...HA!
libertygrl
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Posted 04/01/11 - 1:36 PM:

looks like the pastor terry jones went ahead with his quran-burning plans:

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/2011040...istan_unitednations_deaths

sad
henry quirk
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Posted 04/04/11 - 11:31 AM:

I may be mistaken, but, it seems Harry Reid is on the verge of proposing some kind of 'free speech' limit (a 'time of war' kinda thing) wherein burning a Koran would be penalized.

If so (and if such a limit is enforced): I'll meander over to the Barnes 'n Noble, buy myself a Koran, issue a press release to all my local media, and then burn the fucker.

As I'm hauled away: I'll make it clear, my burning the book has nothing to do with 'free speech', politics, ideology, religion, or pissing off Muslims.

My burning the book has everything to do with my 'doing' with 'my' property as I see fit.

And: just to be 'fair', I'll probably burn copies of the Bible and Talmud too (and a copy of the U.S. Constitution to boot!).

Any suggestions for any other 'holy' books I can toss on my bonfire?
libertygrl
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Posted 04/04/11 - 11:53 AM:

making laws prohibiting the burning of books is ridiculous. as much as i find it loathesome what the pastor did, i don't think there needs to be a law against it, any more than there needs to be a law against being passive aggressive, manipulative, whiny, or any other nuisance of a behavior. i feel about pastor terry jones the way i feel about the westborough baptist church, about whom i agree with the supreme court decision upholding their freedom of speech: the insensitivity of their actions is still reprehensible in my view.
libertygrl
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Posted 04/04/11 - 12:14 PM:

henry quirk wrote:
Any suggestions for any other 'holy' books I can toss on my bonfire?

i'm guessing that throwing an american flag on there and televising it will probably get a lot more people riled up than burning the constitution
KinNaoko90
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Posted 04/04/11 - 12:17 PM:

It's unfortunate that some people are as stupid and as insensitive as they are... It would be nice if we could all get along and coexist peacefully, but frankly I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Personally I don't agree with the man, but neither do I think our free speech should be limited because of him. Still, something should be done... not to him in particular... but perhaps to all children when they are young to prevent stupid incidences like this from happening in the future. I wonder if there would be a way to have a mandatory class on peoples differences and accepting them in grades K through 5 or 6. As much as I think something like that should be mandatory all the way through their childhood years, that may be a bit unrealistic to start with.

On a side note... How much would you like to bet that if I bought as many versions of as many bibles as I could and advertised that I would burn them all in my distaste for Christianity today, that I'd be overruled by the Christian majority and some consequence would be placed immediately... versus them letting him actually do it and then think of a consequence.

And didn't Jesus preach for love and acceptance? Pastor Terry Jones seems to be going against his teachings while making himself feel important.

Just some thoughts... -shrugs-
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Posted 04/04/11 - 12:25 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

i'm guessing that throwing an american flag on there and televising it will probably get a lot more people riled up than burning the constitution


nod

I've wanted to burn the US flag before... especially when Bush was President. Instead I turned my back to the flag every morning when the pledge was said. My teachers were pissed. The idiot classmates of mine thought it was funny... which only pissed the teachers off more. Nobody even cared that I was doing it to show my distaste for the actions we Americans were taking. But since no one could take away my right to free speech, I kept doing it everyday.

(If you can't tell, I think Bush is an idiot.)
Any of us could have done a better job as president. On second thought - maybe not Henry. He seems to not have the patience for that sort of thing. No offense meant.
henry quirk
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Posted 04/04/11 - 12:58 PM:

"No offense meant"

None taken: wink

I'd make a lousy president (*don't follow, don't lead: stand alone...with a big, BIG, stick at hand).



*This works as both personally and nationally... wink
Monk2400
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Posted 04/04/11 - 1:28 PM:

Forget Terry Jones and any other person who actively shows their disdain for Islam.

How about we talk about the butchers that indiscriminately killed foreigners in supposed 'retaliation' without a care to whether said foreigners were in any way connected to the event in question?

How about we compare brutal murder to burning a bunch of paper?

Which is the larger moral outrage here? There is, for me, absolutely no question.

The problems isn't protestation, no matter if some people find it distasteful or not.

Its a religion whose cult of personality surrounding its prophet is so powerful in the hearts and minds of its followers that the slightest perceived 'insult' is met with acts of extreme violence and brutality.

This isn't an uncommon occurrence.

We should NOT defend these murderers by laying blame on a person who is, in their OWN NATION, exercising their right to freedom of expression.

Nor is such a person responsible for putting foreigners in harm's way as part of an OCCUPYING FORCE whose primary motive is securing oil supplies and selling heroine.

If we are to see these murderers as 'hornets' that are stirred to violence when 'kicked' then we ought also exterminate them as they richly deserve, not as human beings, but as pests that pose a threat to our personal safety.

But if they are indeed men, then they and only they alone are responsible for their brutal acts, whatever bullshxt rationalizations they use to 'justify' themselves. To them, the 'cause' won't matter. Today a burnt book, tomorrow an offhand comment.

So burn your Qurans people, burn them bright!! Burn them to ash and stomp on the ashes. Then see for yourselves the value of the 'religion of peace'.

Maybe if so-called peaceful Muslims stood up en masse and denounced acts such as these, we might be justified in taking a different view. But they don't, they won't, because the Taliban and its ilk do not represent 'extreme' Islam, but CONSERVATIVE Islam, which at its root is virulently opposed to everything modern western civilization stands for.

Think about this the next time a Christian is killed in a Muslim country for merely being a Christian, while the world does and says nothing about it.

mad
Monk2400
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Posted 04/04/11 - 1:39 PM:

KinNaoko90 wrote:

And didn't Jesus preach for love and acceptance?


Jesus taught division and warfare. I'm not kidding. He did not preach acceptance of evil and supping with the devil.

Many Christians believe the Quran is the work of the devil...literally. And thus Islam is seen as an evil religion devised to beguile folk and lead them into hellfire. Far from being the true religion, it is a lie (in their eyes).

Makes sense that they would want to take a stance and make a bold statement to that effect.

And what do we see in the west? Soft-hearted liberals defending political correctness over fundamental rights. Defense of killers by denunciation of people freely expressing their view on the value of a spiritual teaching.

The American nation is in Afghanistan for two reasons: Oil and heroin. Its ludicrous that they should be sensitive to Islam as a religion. They are there to eliminate conservative Islam and install puppet regimes of 'modern liberal Muslims' that are 'friendly' to the west.

Why not just be honest and say we are coming to kill you, displace your religion, and dominate your lands for profit? Qruans be damned! Enough with the two-facedness.

thumb down

libertygrl
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Posted 04/04/11 - 2:17 PM:

i find any kind of murder and torture in the name of religion to be absolutely vile. such crimes are unforgivable in my view. it doesn't keep me from finding the pastor's behavior to be insensitive and reprehensible, on a far different scale.

Monk wrote:
So burn your Qurans people, burn them bright!! Burn them to ash and stomp on the ashes.

if that's how you feel, that the principle of it is worth jumping in on the war and freely stirring shit up, why not get on national television and burn a few qurans yourself? really, what's stopping you?

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Posted 04/04/11 - 2:50 PM:

Monk, I was not trying to anger you, though that seems to be the result.

Now regardless of whether I anger you or not... The terrorists of 9/11 were Muslim extremists. Radicals if you will. Not all Muslims are the same. Just like not all Christians are the same. Some are more liberal these days. Same with Muslims. There are others who follow older ways among both religions. Some Christian stay radically conservative/liberal and insist on pissing other people off... same with Muslims. In my opinion, none of these ways are necessarily correct, which is ironic considering I am of both Islamic and Christian heritage.

My grandfather was a Muslim who had grown up in India. He educated his servants despite being scorned for it. He was very enlightened for the time. When he married my grandmother, a Christian (Catholic) he believed that their children would benefit from religion whether they personally believed in it or not. Thus he even let their children grow up to be catholic while he remained Muslim. Also when they got married they had two separate marriages, one for his family and one hers.

All you burning the Quran would do is just prove you to be almost as immature as the human beings who hijacked US planes in order to retaliate. After all, you both would be overreacting and angering people more than trying to solve the problem at hand. I wouldn't stop you. I would advise against it, but I wouldn't stop you. I don't like to think of my couch buddies as immature, so please rethink this before going through with it.
Monk2400
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Posted 04/04/11 - 7:17 PM:

Folks, put it in perspective. If a bunch of Afghans sat around burning up the Bible would we have the Pope issue edicts to go our and kill local Muslims? Would Christians in Florida firebomb mosques?

No.

People are like saying 'don't poke the bear cause the bear is violent'. Well if that bear is soo dangerous, kill the damn thing and eliminate the danger. Don't go out and burn all the sticks in the world so no one can poke the bear with a stick.

8)
Monk2400
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Posted 04/04/11 - 7:36 PM:

KinNaoko90 wrote:

Monk, I was not trying to anger you, though that seems to be the result.


I didn't think you were. I was only pointing out that Jesus taught division, not peace.


KinNaoko90 wrote:

The terrorists of 9/11 were Muslim extremists.


Laugh.


KinNaoko90 wrote:

Not all Muslims are the same. Just like not all Christians are the same. Some are more liberal these days. Same with Muslims. There are others who follow older ways among both religions. Some Christian stay radically conservative/liberal and insist on pissing other people off... same with Muslims. In my opinion, none of these ways are necessarily correct, which is ironic considering I am of both Islamic and Christian heritage.


Folks seem to labour under this delusion that there can be such a thing as a 'moderate' or 'liberal' Muslim. This is nonsense. Such a person can only accommodate liberal concepts by compromising on traditional and well-defined Muslim values.

Islam wants you dead or in servitude. That's the full and complete message to all kafir. Repent or be destroyed.

There is no such thing as 'progression' in Islam. Any and all manner of innovation is sin of the highest degree. So Muslims adhering to the 'old ways' are more likely to be REAL Muslims than anyone adopting a modern quasi-muslim philosophy. The more liberal a person is, the less Muslim they are. It doesn't take much to put a Muslim in a state of kafir.


KinNaoko90 wrote:

My grandfather was a Muslim...he even let their children grow up to be catholic while he remained Muslim.


Truly shocking, and contrary to good Islamic practice. Why would you let your kids grow up being taught lies and untruths?

This isn't an example of the value of the religion. Or rather, it is an example of the lack of value of the religion. If you truly believed that a certain religion was the only path to truth, you wouldn't let your own flesh and blood follow another path, certainly not on purpose.


KinNaoko90 wrote:

All you burning the Quran would do is just prove you to be almost as immature as the human beings who hijacked US planes in order to retaliate. After all, you both would be overreacting and angering people more than trying to solve the problem at hand. I wouldn't stop you. I would advise against it, but I wouldn't stop you. I don't like to think of my couch buddies as immature, so please rethink this before going through with it.


As a philosopher I abhor the idea of destroying knowledge by burning books. But as a political statement such burnings are valid. And as a spiritual statement against lies and deception, they are easily understandable.

Burning a book is no solution, of course. It is a statement, not the answer to a problem. The problem is Islam. Or more generally, religion. And the only answer to that is total and utter annihilation.

But that isn't going to happen, so all we have to look forward to is bloody conflict until one or the other side rules supreme.

I suppose yall will enjoy living under a caliphate, eh? The people of this forum would be some of the first to be put to the sword. Think about that.

8)
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Posted 04/04/11 - 7:39 PM:

Mr. Lif...Home of the Brave

Word up. Pay attention to the lyrics about Afghanistan. Why are we talking about people burning books? The whole country is on fire.

shaking head
libertygrl
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Posted 04/04/11 - 7:54 PM:

Monk wrote:
I suppose yall will enjoy living under a caliphate, eh?

i dunno, will you?

Monk wrote:
Why are we talking about people burning books? The whole country is on fire.

why are we talking about anything at all? because we can. people are starving in africa, after all, i mean what are we doing here on a philosophy forum when there's serious problems going on in the world? what is it that you think we should be doing instead, monk? (and why aren't you doing it?)

any of us could do one of three things. 1) end the conflict in afghanistan (something i don't have the "might" for, so that's a no-go on this end.) 2) join the conflict from the other side of the world by doing ridiculous things like burning korans to make a statement (or worse), or 3) stay out of the conflict to the best extent possible. i wish i had the ability and resources for option 1. but i don't, so i'm left with option number 3. and the more people who choose option 3, the better, as far as i'm concerned.
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Posted 04/04/11 - 8:01 PM:

Monk,
Christianity isn't any better or more right than Islam. You have your crusades they have their jihads. Both persecute. Both group have extremist. One group is simply more severely limited by the government as to what they can do.

As to the bear comment, leave the poor bear alone if it's that dangerous! If as you've implied, humans are above and more intelligent than the rest of the animals, we can't expect them to choose not to be dangerous or vice versa. In other words, it's not the poor bear's fault!
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Posted 04/04/11 - 8:04 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

any of us could do one of three things. 1) end the conflict in afghanistan (something i don't have the "might" for, so that's a no-go on this end.) 2) join the conflict from the other side of the world by doing ridiculous things like burning korans to make a statement (or worse), or 3) stay out of the conflict to the best extent possible. i wish i had the ability and resources for option 1. but i don't, so i'm left with option number 3. and the more people who choose option 3, the better, as far as i'm concerned.


Agreed.

But who says we cant become activists and eventually gain enough power for number 1?
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Posted 04/05/11 - 4:39 AM:

Monk2400 wrote:
Folks seem to labour under this delusion that there can be such a thing as a 'moderate' or 'liberal' Muslim. This is nonsense. Such a person can only accommodate liberal concepts by compromising on traditional and well-defined Muslim values.

Islam wants you dead or in servitude. That's the full and complete message to all kafir. Repent or be destroyed.


I agree. thumb up
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