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I need three opinionson the death pena..

Comments on I need three opinionson the death pena..

JrnymnX
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#51 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/11/09 - 5:34 PM:

smokinpristiformis wrote:
And do you see the vicious and deadly greed, the suffering and the genocide that it's built on are you turning the blind eye?

I thought you were complaining about the evils of the West... oh wait... I see... you're turning a blind eye to the vicious and deadly greed, the suffering and genocide that plagues humanity in the rest of the world only to dump on the West.

While these evils have always reared their ugly heads throughout the course of human history it would stretch the bounds of credulity to claim that the West is worse than the rest of the world.

smokinpristiformis wrote:
You do not 'deserve' this, neither does any one of us. We just got lucky.


What's with all the self-loathing? Of course I deserve this. Everyone on earth deserves this.

[irony]If only we had an engineer about to explain the types of things humainty is able to achieve when freed from worrying about the aforementioned vicious and deadly greed, suffering and genocide.[/irony]

If you really do believe that none of us deserve this then you would put your effort not into making the world a better place for all, but making us all equally miserable as we deserve.
smokinpristiformis
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#52 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/14/09 - 4:00 AM:

I thought you were complaining about the evils of the West... oh wait... I see... you're turning a blind eye to the vicious and deadly greed, the suffering and genocide that plagues humanity in the rest of the world only to dump on the West.

While these evils have always reared their ugly heads throughout the course of human history it would stretch the bounds of credulity to claim that the West is worse than the rest of the world.


Nope. You got that wrong. Have you read anything I wrote on this forum ?


What's with all the self-loathing? Of course I deserve this. Everyone on earth deserves this.

[irony]If only we had an engineer about to explain the types of things humainty is able to achieve when freed from worrying about the aforementioned vicious and deadly greed, suffering and genocide.[/irony]

If you really do believe that none of us deserve this then you would put your effort not into making the world a better place for all, but making us all equally miserable as we deserve.


I wish the best for all living things. I think this desire is quite heartfelt on my part, so you can save your cheap shots.

You seemed to indicate that we have done more to merit the luxurious life we're leading any more than some poor bastard who is dying from hunger. (No need to go to Africa for this, plenty of those in the west as well.) Generally speaking, this is certainly wrong. Merit is distributed rather fairly throughout humanity.

Contrary to the belief of some, there is no place on earth that magically generates better people. Some education or circumstance might provoke better behaviour, but even that is not anyone's merit. Generally speaking, of course.

Some people might be lucky enough to potentially be of more worth, because of some talent fluctuations, and perhaps better and greater investments have been made into them. Then again, there are also those who live in the western world and simply weigh on the earth's carrying capacity like a useless lead block. It works both ways. Is the average western person worth so much that his ecological footprint is justified, in relation to the worths and footprints of, say, the average mongolian. I doubt it. In any case, merit (again, on the whole ..) has not much to do with it.

We don't get to sit back and relax in the comfortable situation that our ancestors arranged for us. That's ridiculous. Our ancestors didn't work any harder or smarter than the 90% of the world's population who don't have as much wealth. As you say, humans are/were/will be pretty much the same humans at any where and time.

You don't see the wealth? The freedom? The liberty?


For those lucky few who can afford it, I suppose. And then what? You think we're done? Just because most of the world's wealth happens to be geographically concentrated, it doesn't mean the poverty of the other 90% of the planet is any less of a problem. The world is a street of ten and you're the one rich guy in the middle, neighbour to nine other families, ranging from tempered poverty to chronic underfeeding. I don't expect you so support them all. [sarcasm]Gods forbid such a vicious travesty would be asked![/sarcasm] But some consideration might be good.

No need to force cultural revolution through anyone's throat. Just an effort to stop post-colonial leeching of the third world would be a start.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28488531@N08/3535380017/
www.du.edu/korbel/hrhw/dige...st/slavery/agriculture.pdf
http://www.stopblooddiamonds.org/
....

An effort to stop global warming from increasing global desertification would also help. Fair trade perhaps. Green energy. It doesn't sound so hard, does it?


So we have all these engineers who try to make better designs and all the people who dedicate a part of their lives to creating awareness and stepping in to help where needed. It would be nice, for a change, to see the consumers doing their bit and dedicating a tiny bit of thought to the social and environmental sustainability of their choices. Just a tiny bit of thought. [sarcasm]Surely we couldn't ask for anything more.[/sarcasm]


Of course, all this is relevant unless you simply don't care, in which case you can disregard all of the above.

For all the others, it's ok if you can't live up to caring for every living thing at every place in time. But at least acknowledge then, that it is too much for you to spare. Don't pretend to care, or care selectively. Or care when it suits you. Don't go around rationalising that some things or people should be cared about while others should not. Because that would be hypocrisy, which is uglier and perhaps much worse than flat-out carelessness.

Edited by smokinpristiformis on 12/14/09 - 9:49 AM
smokinpristiformis
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#53 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/14/09 - 9:45 AM:

henry quirk wrote:
"It's been a while, hasn't it?"

Yeah: it has...so: who's up for a little war?



*To warrrr !!!!*


Now, where did I bury that damn axe again?
henry quirk
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#54 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/14/09 - 11:44 AM:

"*To warrrr !!!!*"

Only if the gods allow... wink

#

"Now, where did I bury that damn axe again?"

HA!
praxis
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#55 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/14/09 - 1:01 PM:

We prefer it this way don't we, as it was meant to be. No peace in our time. Once more unto the breach, dear friends. Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!!
henry quirk
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#56 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/14/09 - 3:09 PM:

"We prefer it this way don't we..."

I do...unfortunately the gods sometimes choose to order our affairs differently... wink
JrnymnX
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#57 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/20/09 - 12:13 PM:

{quotes from smikinpristiformis}
Nope. You got that wrong. Have you read anything I wrote on this forum ?

Very little, but that's beside the point. If you have an argument to make about this thread make it in the thread, I have neither the time nor the inclination to research your p.o.v. in other threads. Beside where would I start? This thread started on opinions about the death penalty and turned into a dump on the West.
I have not got it wrong. You are intentionally seeing the bad in the West while ignoring the bad in the rest of the world, assigning to todays all the evils of history. The vicious and deadly greed that you're going on about has been tempered by the liberty that I am advocating. The genocide - please - you have to go back centuries in the West for an example and only months in other parts of the world.


I wish the best for all living things. I think this desire is quite heartfelt on my part, so you can save your cheap shots.

I believe that you are sincere in your best wishes for all living things, but that wasn't even close to a cheap shot. It was merely a rational extension of your line of thought. I did make a mistake though in saying that if you really felt that way you would pursue a course of action that would make us all equally miserable. The mistake was in not seeing that this is the end result of the course of action you are advocating.


You seemed to indicate that we have done more to merit the luxurious life we're leading any more than some poor bastard who is dying from hunger.

You seem to indicate that we haven't.

The first human who overcame their fear to take fire from a lightning struck tree and put that fire to their own use for their own purpose deserved it more than all those others who saw fire and fled. From my p.o.v. they merited this advance. From your p.o.v. they were just what? - lucky? Meanwhile all of humanity was carried along on their coattails.

So it has been with all advances that have dragged humanity out of the muck of savagery. Advances achieved by merit, not luck.


Merit is distributed rather fairly throughout humanity.

The battle cry of the redistributionist.
Do the children in your part of the world have a saying like they do in mine, "monkey see, monkey do?" Merit can be taught. That's what allows civilization to progress, that's what allows families to thrive. It is a mechanism of evolution.


Our ancestors didn't work any harder or smarter than the 90% of the world's population who don't have as much wealth.

An obviously false statement. If our ancestors didn't work any harder or smarter than the 90% who don't have as much as our civilization why have we progress while they have not?


Just because most of the world's wealth happens to be geographically concentrated, it doesn't mean the poverty of the other 90% of the planet is any less of a problem.

Poverty is a problem that has never been solved by the rich. No matter how serious or well intentioned the effort all that has ever been done is to make the problem worse. You too recognize this. You've said, "there are also those who live in the western world and simply weigh on the earth's carrying capacity like a useless lead block." These are the end result of institutionalized charity.

That's what makes the idea of giving charity to poor countries so dangerous. The money becomes their herion. They don't work for their well being, they jsut wait for their next fix. And what happens to them when the next fix is late arriving or the local warlord decides to keep it all for themself.


No need to force cultural revolution through anyone's throat.

You can't force cultural revolution.


Just an effort to stop post-colonial leeching of the third world would be a start.

That's what's behind those who purchase 'fair trade' goods from the third world. It is an effort to stop post-colonial leeching. But if it is ever going to stop it will have to be stopped by those who are being leeched. This is what I've been driving at all along.
Why do corporations leech from the third world? Because the populace of the first world have thrown off the shackles of those who would keep them living in servitude. Admittedly this isn't something the our generation has done, this is the heritage that is passed down to us by our forebearers. It is the heritage that we guard and protect. A heritage that we dare not lose sight of or else we will either end up living as slaves to the modern feudal lord - the corporation, or end up as slaves through guilt and forced charity to those who don't have the courage to stand up to their oppressors today. Slaves to the slaves.


More to say but I'm out of time.
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