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I need three opinionson the death pena..

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henry quirk
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#26 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/09 - 10:33 AM:

"Poor Henry might simply be at the wrong place at the wrong time."

Indeed! Chance is always a factor, in everything. I still think, however, if Henry the serial cannibal is caught, it has more to do with his lack of planning than with the skill of the pursuer or with chance.

Again: Henry is too timid or too stupid to plan well.

#

"It has nothing to do with intelligence."

Intelligence, as I think you mean, is not what I'm talking about. Raw brain power is merely a facet of the whole animal. And it's the whole animal I'm talking about: intelligence, cunning, passion, blood lust, the focusing of appetites, etc.

The 'might' of the animal is mainly what I'm talking about, the 'might' being synonymous with the animal itself.

#

"You should be arguing for wealth instead of intelligence. OJ managed to beat a murder charge with 3-6 million bucks. It is highly unlikely he would have beaten the charge with only 1.4 million (average annual cost of imprisonment x 70)."

A perfect example! Thanks, praxis!

OJ beat the rap because he had the right 'might' for the circumstance...his 'might' allowed him to secure proxies who could think for him and defend him.

He walked...good on him.

#

"Justice costs money in the U.S., thus it would be unethical to not spend adequately on the accused."

If the accused have the wherewithal (the 'might') to defend or secure defense: good on him or her.

If not: too bad...prepare to be railroaded and fry.

You sniff the air and get a sense of something bad coming your way...subpoenas stink to high heaven...with the stench in your nose you can submit, fight, or run.

Pick the one most appropriate to yourself.

#

"Death penalty good."

No: it's not good or bad...executions are simply the exercise of the big stick.

Morality and ethics (nice little ideas, those) have absolutely nothing to do with it.

#

"who are we to decides someones death?"

He, or they, who wield (for the moment) the big stick, decides. Holding the big stick (might) is the only reason or justification required.
praxis
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#27 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/09 - 1:21 PM:

JrnymnX wrote:
But you already do. [live in a blind world] Child raping pedophiles, rapists and murderers are routinely freed from prison after they've 'paid their debt to society' only to offend again. The moral majority closes their collective eyes every time this is allowed to happen.

Your reasoning is that because we already live in a blind society we should not put any effort into improving our society?
JrnymnX
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#28 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/02/09 - 2:13 PM:

I am all for improving society. Yet I fail to see how coddling someone deserving of the death penalty could be considered, in any sense, improving society.

Do we really want people like Maurice Clemmons, a child raping, police officer assaulting man, described by psychologists as being, "an increased risk for future dangerous behavior and jeopardizing public safety," walking our streets? I'm pretty sure the families of the four police he killed would have much sooner he took a bullet a month earlier.

Society doesn't really offer us much that we can't provide for ourselves, but what it does offer - I want. That thing is strenght in numbers. It allows the society of sheep comfort in the face of the wolves. Helps us avoid the fate of a life that is nasty, brutish and short. I find it appalling when people, albeit with good intentions, are willing to throw the essential benefit of society under the bus in favor of those who society is designed to save us from. But so much for good intentions.

Getting back to your Gandhi quote. Its dire consequences presupposes an unnatural state wherein our society would be made up equally of sheep types and wolf types. In reality 'an eye for an eye' would result in the majority of wolves being blinded with a very small minority of the sheep being partially blind. In either case it would be better to live courageously with a handicap than to choose a handicap out of cowardice. That's where society is now, choosing a handicap out of cowardice - choosing blindness rather than following through on a distasteful course of action.

praxis wrote:

Your reasoning is that because we already live in a blind society we should not put any effort into improving our society?

What better way to improve society than to open anothers eyes?
praxis
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#29 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/02/09 - 5:23 PM:

JrnymnX wrote:
Getting back to your Gandhi quote. Its dire consequences presupposes an unnatural state wherein our society would be made up equally of sheep types and wolf types. In reality 'an eye for an eye' would result in the majority of wolves being blinded with a very small minority of the sheep being partially blind. In either case it would be better to live courageously with a handicap than to choose a handicap out of cowardice. That's where society is now, choosing a handicap out of cowardice - choosing blindness rather than following through on a distasteful course of action.

Your meaning is unclear to me at the end here. Capital punishment is still practiced in various societies around the world.

Also, are you suggesting that Gandhi was a cowardly sheep type? If you are I would suggest learning more about him.
smokinpristiformis
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#30 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/03/09 - 5:18 AM:

Capital punishment seems a childish approach to me.
"I can't handle this, make it go away, make it go away !"

Yes the crime was disgustingly cruel. No you can't use that as an excuse to do the same. It's sad, but deal with it. As opposed to not dealing with it (make it go away !!).

Capital punishment is in my view not a rational approach. It is a immature expression of wrath. It shows weakness, carelessness. It is possible that humanity is not ready to take care of its most distorted members, but if that is so, it is a flaw we should fix.

A propos, most of the developed countries in the world have abandoned capital punishment. Some countries have abandoned it only in practice, others in law and practice, all with varying degrees of succes (with regard to additional crimes). Nevertheless, given enough effort, it is perfectly possible to abandon capital practice and there is no rational reason to hold on to it.
JrnymnX
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#31 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/03/09 - 10:57 AM:

praxis wrote:

Your meaning is unclear to me at the end here. Capital punishment is still practiced in various societies around the world.

True, but what concern of mine are other societies?

praxis wrote:

Also, are you suggesting that Gandhi was a cowardly sheep type? If you are I would suggest learning more about him.

Truly amazing how you can stretch my comments into an ad hominem against Gandhi.
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#32 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/03/09 - 12:43 PM:

Sorry, Jrnymnx, as mentioned your meanings are not clear to me. My bad!
smokinpristiformis
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#33 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/04/09 - 3:07 AM:

True, but what concern of mine are other societies


One should strive for the world to be a place where one could be born anywhere under any circumstance and have the best life possible. In short, it could just as well be you taking the hits.
henry quirk
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#34 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/07/09 - 12:17 PM:

"One should strive for the world to be a place where one could be born anywhere under any circumstance and have the best life possible."

Why?

Saying, 'it could just as well be you taking the hits.', is no reason at all.
JrnymnX
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#35 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/07/09 - 3:35 PM:

smokinpristiformis wrote:


One should strive for the world to be a place where one could be born anywhere under any circumstance and have the best life possible. In short, it could just as well be you taking the hits.


Any ideal more often espoused than lived in my experience.

My ancestors paid for the type of life I enjoy with their blood, sweat and tears. If I'm going to strive for anything it will be to preserve what they have gifted me. No amount of good intentions, or even imperialistic might as recent history has shown, can force people to accept what western culture considers to be the good life. If people in the rest of the world want it they have to buy it just as my ancestors and yours did. You can't force cultural evolution.
smokinpristiformis
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#36 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/08/09 - 2:49 AM:

henry quirk wrote:
"One should strive for the world to be a place where one could be born anywhere under any circumstance and have the best life possible."

Why?

Saying, 'it could just as well be you taking the hits.', is no reason at all.



Let me rephrase: It 'is' you taking the hits. There is no difference between you and the beggar down the street, or the guy that irritates you in the traffic, or Bill Clinton. All of them are essentially you in every aspect that matters. Their pain, love, distress, joy, all that is happening to (a version of) you.

smokinpristiformis
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#37 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/08/09 - 2:53 AM:

JrnymnX wrote:


Any ideal more often espoused than lived in my experience.

My ancestors paid for the type of life I enjoy with their blood, sweat and tears. If I'm going to strive for anything it will be to preserve what they have gifted me. No amount of good intentions, or even imperialistic might as recent history has shown, can force people to accept what western culture considers to be the good life. If people in the rest of the world want it they have to buy it just as my ancestors and yours did. You can't force cultural evolution.


Don't kid yourself. Their ancestors were just as intelligent and worked just as hard as yours. They had rotten luck or are in a down phase while you are happy enough to be in an up phase, or whatever. As for our ancestors buying the great life we're leading, is laughable. They mostly took it. Often from other people's dead bodies. You just got lucky to get born in the right place at the right time. That is all.
henry quirk
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#38 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/08/09 - 11:26 AM:

"Let me rephrase: It 'is' you taking the hits. There is no difference between you and the beggar down the street, or the guy that irritates you in the traffic, or Bill Clinton. All of them are essentially you in every aspect that matters. Their pain, love, distress, joy, all that is happening to (a version of) you."


Willem, I say this with all the love my stony heart can muster: bullshit.

I am most definitely NOT any of those and they are not me.

I know the absent communitarian would enthusiastically support your view here, and you know how swimmingly he and I got along... wink

It may, however, be time to revisit that old debate (the individual versus the collective; idiosyncrasy versus 'same-ness'). If you like: open a thread and we (all of us) can tussle a bit... wink
smokinpristiformis
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#39 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/09/09 - 3:52 AM:

henry quirk wrote:

It may, however, be time to revisit that old debate (the individual versus the collective; idiosyncrasy versus 'same-ness'). If you like: open a thread and we (all of us) can tussle a bit... wink


It's been a while, hasn't it? nod
henry quirk
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#40 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/09/09 - 11:34 AM:

"It's been a while, hasn't it?"

Yeah: it has...so: who's up for a little war?
JrnymnX
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#41 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/09/09 - 4:39 PM:

smokinpristiformis wrote:

...As for our ancestors buying the great life we're leading, is laughable. They mostly took it.


That's exactly what I meant. What other way it there to buy it?
praxis
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#42 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/09/09 - 6:54 PM:

Wonder how Xaldin did on the essay. Hopefully the teacher is not one of THOSE PEOPLE or he's in big trouble.
JrnymnX
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#43 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/09/09 - 8:28 PM:

Xaldin was only here for 50 minutes then bugged out. Maybe trying to get a paper done in one night and impatient with the pace around here. laughing
He may be in big trouble regardless of his teacher.
libertygrl
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#44 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/10/09 - 1:09 AM:

JrnymnX wrote:
That's exactly what I meant. What other way it there to buy it?

there's also the kind of buying that involves working toward something, earning it, giving and receiving in fair trade.
smokinpristiformis
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#45 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/10/09 - 4:00 AM:

The west's wealth was built on blood and slavery. It is certainly not something I would bring up as an argument why you should have and others should have not.
JrnymnX
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#46 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/10/09 - 6:16 PM:

smokinpristiformis wrote:
The west's wealth was built on blood and slavery.

The west's wealth was built on freedom, liberty, perseverance and the ingenuity that flourished in an egalitarian society.
Freedom and liberty were purchased with blood, sweat and tears in numerous revolutions in the western world. They saw freedom, recognized it as their birthright, and they took it.

smokinpristiformis wrote:
It is certainly not something I would bring up as an argument why you should have and others should have not.

I guess we could keep on trying to force freedom and equality down the throats of those who aren't willing to take it for themselves, but if you really are down on slavery you should remember that there are more facets to slavery than the economic.
Monk2400
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#47 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/10/09 - 6:46 PM:

JrnymnX wrote:

The west's wealth was built on freedom, liberty, perseverance and the ingenuity that flourished in an egalitarian society.


Sorry, but where was this mythical society you speak of...? I don't recall seeing it in the history books...

JrnymnX wrote:

Freedom and liberty were purchased with blood, sweat and tears in numerous revolutions in the western world. They saw freedom, recognized it as their birthright, and they took it.


Or at least, the appearance of freedom.

JrnymnX wrote:

I guess we could keep on trying to force freedom and equality down the throats of those who aren't willing to take it for themselves


lol, now there's a fine oxymoron: Forced Freedom.

Forcible equality is communism. And its contrary to nature.

Here, not surprisingly, Islam is ahead of the game, recognizing that all human beings are equal before God, but that each lives according to their particular powers, ie, men and women aren't 'equal' in power or position by design, nor do they need to be, as each balances the other, and one is incomplete without the other, the ol' yin/yang.

JrnymnX wrote:

but if you really are down on slavery you should remember that there are more facets to slavery than the economic.


Indeed, and freedom means more than civic liberty.

I ask, where is the freeman today? He is busy trying to throw off the shackles of illegal government interference whilst standing on the Magna Carta in an attempt to assert the rights he always had naturally, but which are obfuscated by legalism and ignorance.

8)

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#48 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/10/09 - 6:49 PM:

But this by-the-by.

Meanwhile, isn't death-for-death perfect justice?

If a man kills in lust, anger, hate, for pleasure, or mania, shouldn't his reward by the same? His life forfeit?

The only poblem is proof. Such a penalty is only just if there is absolute proof of guilt. Which, in this world, is practically impossible to obtain.

8)
JrnymnX
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#49 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/10/09 - 7:30 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:
Sorry, but where was this mythical society you speak of...?
You don't see the wealth? The freedom? The liberty?

Monk2400 wrote:
I don't recall seeing it in the history books...
Why would you want to look there of all places?


Monk2400 wrote:
Indeed, and freedom means more than civic liberty.
Indeed

Monk2400 wrote:
I ask, where is the freeman today?
Ask?... Lament would be more appropriate.

smokinpristiformis
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#50 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/11/09 - 10:57 AM:

You don't see the wealth? The freedom? The liberty?


And do you see the vicious and deadly greed, the suffering and the genocide that it's built on are you turning the blind eye? You do not 'deserve' this, neither does any one of us. We just got lucky.
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