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I need three opinionson the death pena..

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Xaldin
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Xaldin
Posted 11/29/09 - 6:33 PM:
Subject: I need three opinionson the death pena..
I'm writing an essay for my school about capital punishment. I went out to ask people these questions in public (opinion), but it was obvious they were not willing to say what they really thought in public. It would take about five minutes if some people would just be willing to answer them for me. THESE PEOPLE CAN NOT SEE YOU AND YOU SHOULD NOT CARE ABOUT WHAT THEY THINK OF YOU! If anyone's willing to help, please just say so.
praxis
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praxis
Posted 11/29/09 - 6:50 PM:

Capital punishment bad.
Xaldin
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Xaldin
Posted 11/29/09 - 6:51 PM:

Okay that's a start.... are you willing to answer three quick questions?
Xaldin
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Xaldin
Posted 11/29/09 - 6:53 PM:

...I'mma' take that as a, "no"...
Xaldin
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Xaldin
Posted 11/29/09 - 6:54 PM:

If someone else comes in, just wait for a moment so I can ask you three quick questions. Otherwise, please don't post anything...
Xaldin
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Xaldin
Posted 11/29/09 - 7:23 PM:

...Okay no one's gonna' help me? That's okay... I'm not really sure how to end one of these things so... this is the end... END!shaking head
libertygrl
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Posted 11/29/09 - 7:36 PM:

hi xaldin, gotta be patient, we don't get a lot of hourly traffic here. if it can wait until tomorrow or the next day, you might get some responses.
Zum
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Zum
Posted 11/29/09 - 8:44 PM:

Fire away, Xaldin.
smokinpristiformis
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Posted 11/30/09 - 6:43 AM:

praxis wrote:
Capital punishment bad.


What he said.
henry quirk
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#10 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/30/09 - 10:39 AM:

Anyone allowing him- or her-self to be taken, imprisoned, tried, convicted, then strapped to the chair, deserves to die.

Simple as that.

Having said that: ask your questions and we'll see where this goes...
praxis
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#11 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/30/09 - 12:53 PM:

1) Is capital punishment a functional deterrent? No.

2) Is it cheeper than life imprisonment? No.

3) Does it promote a societal value that life has intrinsic value? No.

Hey that did take about five minutes. grin
Zum
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#12 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/30/09 - 12:54 PM:

One downside is that with capital punishment, the State is doing, legally, what the criminal has done. Only the sanction of law provides a distinction between two acts which, to all other intents and purposes, are the same. A living person is made into a dead person by means of horrific insults to that person's body.

Another downside has to do with the public messages, complex but unmistakable, sent out through public execution. Public: we don't hang people on street corners anymore, but the public knows very well that someone is being killed. The State is presenting to its citizenry its worst face. It is encouraging the mode of revenge. It is confessing its own helplessness in relation to rehabilitation. (Actually, that's probably a good thing, in a sense: the State is speaking truly.) The State is saying, we are harsh, primitive, unforgiving, absolute, incompetent: be afraid.

Now and then individuals are executed in error. No proof can have been as secure as that individual is dead.

Public execution encourages frivolity in relation to death. By "frivolity" I mean, playing on the surface, refusing to understand what is available to the understanding. (Our culture is already afflicted by a schizophrenia regarding death, consisting of frivolity and terror.) I think we try to tame death by bringing it frivolously into every movie, every news report, as a mere fact: it is, of course, always someone else's death. The existential dimension of death is, therefore, unexamined until the onset of the final illness.

Killing someone is an ultimate act of power of a certain kind; such an act reinforces a power context. This is a context in which one obeys out of fear; courage is disobedience; the authority is the other. Fear enhances people's desire to exercise ultimate power: to hurt and kill.
Monk2400
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#13 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/30/09 - 1:20 PM:

lol, why do folks always come round forums looking for people to do their homework for them? No body cares whether you've got an assignment due. We here in the real world like to discuss things because they interest us, not because of an impending deadline.

I never agree with capital punishment. Death is the absolute end. It admits of no reformation. Killing people is just an expedient way of getting rid of them. It's social 'weeding'--but it never, ever, addresses the root problems that led to the 'crimes' or what-have-you in the first place. If you kill your enemies they can't harm you anymore. But simply killing them doesn't eliminate the causes that created enemies for you in the first place. Killing is never about justice, but always about vengence. And if God wants to kill someone, he can bloody do it himself!

Reminds me of the following uplifting tale from Islam:


Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 17:
The Book Pertaining to Punishments Prescribed by Islam (Kitab Al-Hudud)

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/017.smt.html

Book 017, Number 4206:
... He (the narrator) said: There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allah's Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma'iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah's Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid's) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.



How's that for justice?

thumb down

LOL, Mohammed tells a man, killing a woman with a rock for having sex and giving birth, to 'be gentle'. Such boundless compassion!!

'Killing me softly with his stones, killing me softly, with his stones...taking my whole life, with his rocks, killing me..softly...with his sto-o-o-o-ooones'

raspberry
henry quirk
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#14 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/30/09 - 1:57 PM:

Some years back: a good friend of mine was killed in a robbery. The person or persons who did the killing were never caught.

With this in mind, let me take praxis' three questions and answer them.


1) Is capital punishment a functional deterrent?

In a general sense, probably not...so what?

Were it possible: I would make sure the person or persons who killed my friend could never do the same to another. More importantly: I would have revenge (a reality preferable to the fiction of 'justice').


2) Is it cheaper than life imprisonment?

Of course it is! That is: it's cheaper to put bullet in the head of a man than to feed, clothe, house, and wipe his ass, for 40 years.


3) Does it promote a societal value that life has intrinsic value?

Irrelevant.

#

"...the State is doing, legally, what the criminal has done."

More accurately: the state/gov/culture/society is only doing what its application of 'might' allows it to do.

If government is what I say it is, that is, just the fellows with the biggest stick, then -- if I can avoid the government's inspection -- I say I have the same right to mete out 'justice'.

I have that 'right' because -- like the 'duly appointed or elected' -- I claim it for myself, and am willing to defend -- and, I think, am capable of defending -- that claim.

#

"...simply killing them doesn't eliminate the causes that created enemies for you in the first place."

So what?

I don't care 'why' someone or some ones killed my friend. That he, she, or they killed him is all that matters.

I'd like to return the favor.

Edited by henry quirk on 11/30/09 - 2:16 PM
praxis
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#15 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/30/09 - 2:35 PM:

Hi Henry,

henry quirk wrote:
2) Is it cheaper than life imprisonment?

Of course it is! That is: it's cheaper to put bullet in the head of a man than to feed, clothe, house, and wipe his ass, for 40 years.

The exorbitant costs of capital punishment are actually making America less safe because badly needed financial and legal resources are being diverted from effective crime fighting strategies. Before the Los Angeles riots, for example, California had little money for innovations like community policing, but was managing to spend an extra $90 million per year on capital punishment. Texas, with over 300 people on death row, is spending an estimated $2.3 million per case, but its murder rate remains one of the highest in the country.

The death penalty is escaping the decisive cost-benefit analysis to which every other program is being put in times of austerity. Rather than being posed as a single, but costly, alternative in a spectrum of approaches to crime, the death penalty operates at the extremes of political rhetoric. Candidates use the death penalty as a facile solution to crime which allows them to distinguish themselves by the toughness of their position rather than its effectiveness.

3) Does it promote a societal value that life has intrinsic value?

Irrelevant.

You believe that our cultural values are irrelevant?
libertygrl
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#16 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/30/09 - 2:54 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:
lol, why do folks always come round forums looking for people to do their homework for them? No body cares whether you've got an assignment due. We here in the real world like to discuss things because they interest us, not because of an impending deadline.

leave the insults out, please. going to school is no less a part of the real world than anything else.

henry quirk wrote:
2) Is it cheaper than life imprisonment?

Of course it is! That is: it's cheaper to put bullet in the head of a man than to feed, clothe, house, and wipe his ass, for 40 years.

these were my feelings on it for a long time. the idea that we would shelter and feed someone like a serial child rapist/murderer, for example, for the rest of their lives was much more offensive to me than a state-sanctioned execution. as far as i was concerned, the person had forfeited the right to live by taking the lives of others.

nowadays my sentiments are more along the lines of what zum expressed. the number of people who have been wrongfully convicted to life sentences and recently exonerated by dna testing is astounding. check out this article about 38 exonerees who received hefty compensations from the state of texas for their wrongful imprisonment:

www.usatoday.com/news/natio...9-04-texas-exonerees_N.htm

i also agree that revenge is not something that should be practiced by the state.
henry quirk
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#17 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/30/09 - 6:07 PM:

"The exorbitant costs of capital punishment are actually making America less safe because badly needed financial and legal resources are being diverted from effective crime fighting strategies."

But that's the politics surrounding executions, not the execution itself.

A bullet in the head costs this: one bullet, one gun, one hand to steady, aim, then use the gun.

All the rest (what you're actually railing against) is the cost of appeals and protests and the room and board the condemned get while waiting through appeals and protests.

#

"...California...was managing to spend an extra $90 million per year on capital punishment."

Which is plainly nuts.

Again: that 90 million wasn't going to executions but toward the all the esoterica surrounding executions.

Again: it costs next to nothing to put a bullet in a man's head.

#

"Texas, with over 300 people on death row, is spending an estimated $2.3 million per case, but its murder rate remains one of the highest in the country."

First: if the fools -- as I said up-thread* -- allow themselves to be taken, imprisoned, tried, convicted, then strapped to the chair, then each and every one deserves to die. Not five years after conviction, but the day of conviction. Certainly: same day conviction/executions would shave a bit off the budget, yes? wink

Second: Since the death penalty is about retribution and not deterrence, one shouldn't link the presence of the death penalty to rises or decreases in crime.

#

"The death penalty is escaping the decisive cost-benefit analysis to which every other program is being put in times of austerity. Rather than being posed as a single, but costly, alternative in a spectrum of approaches to crime, the death penalty operates at the extremes of political rhetoric. Candidates use the death penalty as a facile solution to crime which allows them to distinguish themselves by the toughness of their position rather than its effectiveness."

No doubt: but -- again -- this is all the political esoterica surrounding the event, not the event itself.

#

"You believe that our cultural values are irrelevant?"

Obviously, to me, your cultural values are irrelevant (except as obstacles to navigate)...I don't share them, support them, or advocate for them.

#

"the number of people who have been wrongfully convicted to life sentences and recently exonerated by dna testing is astounding."

When one places faith in 'the system' one shouldn't be surprised to find one's self on the platter, served up as a meal.

#

"i also agree that revenge is not something that should be practiced by the state."

Revenge (and its fictional little brother 'justice') are always meted out by the ones with the biggest stick...the biggest stick sanctifies, purifies, and enables all manner of violence.

Why? How?

'Cause the big stick wielder says so... wink

#

*Let's say your friend Henry, is accused of (and is actually guilty of!) some horrible thing...if Henry allows himself to be taken, arrested, tried, convicted, executed, then, Henry gets exactly what he deserves...not because 'justice' is served, but solely because Henry is too timid or stupid to avoid the bullet to the head.

If Henry, on the other hand, commits his horrors and evades detection and capture and execution, then: GOOD ON HIM!

He wins; 'civilization' loses (as 'it' should).

Edited by henry quirk on 11/30/09 - 6:12 PM
praxis
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#18 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/30/09 - 7:37 PM:

henry quirk wrote:
*Let's say your friend Henry, is accused of (and is actually guilty of!) some horrible thing...if Henry allows himself to be taken, arrested, tried, convicted, executed, then, Henry gets exactly what he deserves...not because 'justice' is served, but solely because Henry is too timid or stupid to avoid the bullet to the head.

Poor Henry might simply be at the wrong place at the wrong time. It has nothing to do with intelligence.

You should be arguing for wealth instead of intelligence. OJ managed to beat a murder charge with 3-6 million bucks. It is highly unlikely he would have beaten the charge with only 1.4 million (average annual cost of imprisonment x 70).

Justice costs money in the U.S., thus it would be unethical to not spend adequately on the accused.
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#19 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/30/09 - 8:31 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

leave the insults out, please. going to school is no less a part of the real world than anything else.


What insults?
libertygrl
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#20 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/30/09 - 9:31 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:
What insults?

about not being in the real world. students are people too smiling face
JrnymnX
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#21 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/30/09 - 9:46 PM:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34016501/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/?gt1=43001

Death penalty good.

What is so bad about vengeance?
What's wrong with weeding out the sociopaths?

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#22 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/30/09 - 10:04 PM:

i don't believe in the death penalty - it is as bad as the criminal ... who are we to decides someones death? I am not ready to judge anyone.

I have heard it costs more to execute than to keep them in prison.

imho ....
praxis
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#23 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/09 - 1:14 AM:

JrnymnX wrote:
What is so bad about vengeance?

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. ~ Mahatma Gandhi

I don't want to live in a blind world!
smokinpristiformis
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#24 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/09 - 7:31 AM:

Phlogi might have been a bit crude in his reaction, but he has a point.

- The first post has not been the result of much effort to elaborate on the subject and invitation to for us to help.
- If I were a teacher, I wouldn't let a student get off easy by using internet forums to get a few reactions. For all the teacher knows the forum members might be joking around, or worse, they might just be names the student has made up.
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#25 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/01/09 - 9:31 AM:

muse wrote:
i don't believe in the death penalty - it is as bad as the criminal ... who are we to decides someones death? I am not ready to judge anyone.

Sure you are, you've already said the death penalty 'is as bad a the criminal'. You've just come down on the side on leniency for the one who would just as soon kill you. Not a successful long term survival strategy.
Rabbits don't offer comfort to the coyote.


praxis wrote:

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. ~ Mahatma Gandhi
I don't want to live in a blind world!

But you already do. Child raping pedophiles, rapists and murderers are routinely freed from prison after they've 'paid their debt to society' only to offend again. The moral majority closes their collective eyes every time this is allowed to happen.
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