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Is Autism a product of Natural Selection?

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libertygrl
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#26 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 3:45 PM:

cripes wrote:
The fact is that in todays world, the body is not much more than a pedestal for the head.

please elaborate. the body is necessary for mobility, which is critical to our survival needs, for acquiring food, for example, and for procreation. what we do with the rest of our time doesn't render invalid the need to feed ourselves, to shelter ourselves from the elements or to reproduce. do you agree?
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#27 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 4:00 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

please elaborate. the body is necessary for mobility, which is critical to our survival needs, for acquiring food, for example, and for procreation. what we do with the rest of our time doesn't render invalid the need to feed ourselves, to shelter ourselves from the elements or to reproduce. do you agree?
Of course i agree. my statement was an exaggerated commentary on the fact that the brain is the most exercised muscle in the body. We worship intellect. Since the end of the industrial revolution nearly everything we do is cerebral. The body is no longer needed for survival like it once was, today we have to devise ways to survive on a more cognitive level.

Since life has changed to the degree it has, our babies can remain babies longer, mature more slowly and develop more intensely as opposed to even 60,000 years ago. Babies back then had a shorter life span and therefore matured more quickly due to the fact that life was more raw and difficult. Survival skills have changed - thats all I meant.

I'm just not as long winded as some.laughing



Edited by cripes on 11/24/09 - 4:09 PM
Monk2400
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#28 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 4:16 PM:

libertygrl wrote:

i'm really having trouble following your line of reasoning here. death is the norm for all human beings too, wouldn't you say? is death not a specific, classifiable condition?


Death is absolutely inevitable. Autism is not. These are not in the same category.


libertygrl wrote:

but you can have an evolutionary advantage if your species is not anywhere near the brink of extinction due to underpopulation, such as is the obvious case in our society today. autism may, for example, grant an evolutionary advantage such as a highly evolved understanding of mathematics, science, technology or medicine, such that you could easily pinpoint the solution to what could at some point be a life-threatening problem to the species.


Could be, would be, should be. These speculations are endless and pointless. We can't predict the outcome of history, and evolution only states that, in the long run, the fit survive. Our society allows a great many UNfit to continue reproducing. Such is the benefit of humanitarianism and socialism.

How are people with autism excelling in our environment today? will they continue to do so? Are they the pillars of society? Or are they supported by society?

If we're looking at developing humans with extreme specialisations of knowledge or skills, we are looking at the genetic establishment of a class-based society. Today's geniuses are tomorrow's troglodytes.

Let me put this question to everyone:

If it could be shown that autism was the result, for example, of peoples of southern lineages mating and developing children at northern latitudes, then how many people do you think would say 'yahoo, I'm going to have my kid at a northern latitude and increase the chances of it being autistic!'

If people could avoid having autistic offspring by hook or by crook, I'm pretty sure that most if not all would do so.

IOW, no one is going to purposefully desire to produce autistic offspring or offspring with any other kind of imbalance or identifiabe disorder, whether or not some potential future autistic genius will cure death or not.

So, if we could avoid it, it would be actively and vigorously selected against untill it disappeared entirely.

8)
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#29 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 4:37 PM:

cripes wrote:

Why, because you didn't say it first?


No, because it is patenly absurd.

cripes wrote:

Take a look at what children are doing in school for what 7 hours. That process of sitting in a classroom continues for what, 13 years. Then going home to watch TV or play video games.


And look at how successful that programme has been. Indoctrination is not necessarily education. And that old teaching model is proving time and time again that it is neither authentic nor particularly effective. Human beings need more than talking heads and words flying at them 16 hours a day. They need physical stimulation, tactile exercise. They need to learn to use the WHOLE of their body. And the education world is waking up to this fact, even if policy is slow to change.


cripes wrote:

What about smoking marajuana or other recreational drugs -- what is affected? The head, no?


Well, try separating the head from the rest of the body and see where it gets you.

The brain is not something separate from the body. To suggest this is to revert to another meaningless dualism. The entire body is a single unified system, and all ingested substances act on that system, be they food or poison or medicine. There is absolutely no danger of the body below the neck becomng atrophied and falling off anytime soon.


cripes wrote:

Since the end of the industrial revolution nearly everything we do is cerebral.


This doesn't apply to the vast majority of human beings currently living on the planet. Only those whose main work is intellectual. And those are in the minority.

cripes wrote:

Since life has changed to the degree it has, our babies can remain babies longer, mature more slowly and develop more intensely as opposed to even 60,000 years ago. Babies back then had a shorter life span and therefore matured more quickly due to the fact that life was more raw and difficult.


What evidence is there that human development from infancy was quicker in the past?

Even so, if babies were to remain babies longer, why is puberty apparently coming on earlier?


cripes wrote:

But make no mistake about it, Mr Monk, you're no smarter than anyone else on this planet.


Who suggested otherwise?

rolling eyes
Monk2400
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#30 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 4:41 PM:

The further problem with any argument for the evolutionary advantage of this or that disorder based on the present state of human culture is that is seems to neglect the fact that human culture and tecnology are constantly changing, and what is working today may not even be remotely relevant in 100 or 1000 years. It is extremely unlikely that selection pressures based on culture and technology will be consistent enough for long enough to radically transform the human animal. We only have to look at our known history to note the rapid rise and fall of civilizations.

If we breed a generation of button-pressers, they will only be good for pressing buttons. And when buttons become obsolete, we'll have a generation of dependents without any other ability to contribute or even save themselves.

8)
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#31 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 4:47 PM:

People have a tendency to think in extremes when the word autism is brought up. You would not know or believe I was autistic, alas you probably don't -- Oh wait -- My statements - my damn statements laughing

Most autistic are surviving quite well, thank you, and some are pillars of society. I might even go as far as to suggest the possibility that it may be the autistic that have advance this current structure we all enjoy, or not.

It is of course impossible to know whether or not people such as Mozart, Einstein, Jung and others were autistic, but that may indeed be the case. Perhaps autism as we call it is the norm and has been for some time and non-autistic are the abnormal.
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#32 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 4:51 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:
Death is absolutely inevitable. Autism is not. These are not in the same category.

inevitability has nothing to do with whether a classification is valid.

Monk2400 wrote:
So, if we could avoid it, it would be actively and vigorously selected against untill it disappeared entirely.

it would be sheer foolishness as a species to ignore the question of whether autism and other so-called disorders have an evolutionary advantage, especially when so many positive aspects have already been discovered. monk, since you find such speculation "endless and pointless", no one is stopping you from moving on from the topic. for anyone else who feels differently, the following article may be of interest to you:

www.wired.com/wired/archive...ive/9.12/aspergers_pr.html
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#33 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 5:05 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:


No, because it is patenly absurd.
I see!



Monk2400 wrote:
And look at how successful that programme has been. Indoctrination is not necessarily education. And that old teaching model is proving time and time again that it is neither authentic nor particularly effective. Human beings need more than talking heads and words flying at them 16 hours a day. They need physical stimulation, tactile exercise. They need to learn to use the WHOLE of their body. And the education world is waking up to this fact, even if policy is slow to change.
While i agree that the school system is more of an indoctrination, what do you expect? The value passed on through the school system are exactly what one might expect for a people who participate in multilevel group selection. the group must come first, therefore indoctrination is exactly what one would expect. Its actually worked quite well in fact.

Your perspective is simply focused elsewhere.




Monk2400 wrote:
Well, try separating the head from the rest of the body and see where it gets you.

The brain is not something separate from the body. To suggest this is to revert to another meaningless dualism. The entire body is a single unified system, and all ingested substances act on that system, be they food or poison or medicine. There is absolutely no danger of the body below the neck becomng atrophied and falling off anytime soon.
Complete mis representation of what I've said and you must know it.




Monk2400 wrote:
This doesn't apply to the vast majority of human beings currently living on the planet. Only those whose main work is intellectual. And those are in the minority.
Everyday life, Monk, everyday life. You're forgetting the obvious.



Monk2400 wrote:
What evidence is there that human development from infancy was quicker in the past?
The quickest one to mind is Being Human part 3. Thats a one hour video. Sorry thats all I can come up with for the moment.


Monk2400 wrote:
Even so, if babies were to remain babies longer, why is puberty apparently coming on earlier?
Some suggest lifestyle and mainly diet. I left a link in an earlier post.







Edited by cripes on 11/24/09 - 5:09 PM
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#34 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 5:13 PM:

libertygrl wrote:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers_pr.html
I read that a few weeks ago. have you seen the test that went along with that article?

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

I scored a 37. thats when I got serious about checking further.

I'm taking the plunge and having a formal evaluation done. I'm getting a cash discount of $1500.00.


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#35 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 5:30 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:
Even so, if babies were to remain babies longer, why is puberty apparently coming on earlier?

cripes wrote:
Some suggest lifestyle and msinly diet. I left a link in an earlier post.

there are some specifics on this in the link on neoteny that cripes posted earlier in this thread.

Monk2400 wrote:
The brain is not something separate from the body. To suggest this is to revert to another meaningless dualism. The entire body is a single unified system, and all ingested substances act on that system, be they food or poison or medicine. There is absolutely no danger of the body below the neck becomng atrophied and falling off anytime soon.

cripes wrote:
Complete mis representation of what I've said and you must know it.

cripes, monk typically responds to posts in the order they appear in the thread. giving him the benefit of the doubt, i imagine that what he wrote in the above quote was before he read your subsequent clarification in response to my request to please elaborate. his line of reasoning about what you meant was the same as mine up until that point.
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#36 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 5:39 PM:

cripes wrote:

It is of course impossible to know whether or not people such as Mozart, Einstein, Jung and others were autistic, but that may indeed be the case. Perhaps autism as we call it is the norm and has been for some time and non-autistic are the abnormal.


Perhaps, and so on, ad infinitum.

libertygrl wrote:

monk, since you find such speculation "endless and pointless", no one is stopping you from moving on from the topic.


Quite so! I shall return to AGW, vaccinations, and other pertainent political topics of which I know little or nothing at all.wink

8)
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#37 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 5:40 PM:

libertygrl wrote:


there are some specifics on this in the link on neoteny that cripes posted earlier in this thread.



cripes, monk typically responds to posts in the order they appear in the thread. giving him the benefit of the doubt, i imagine that what he wrote in the above quote was before he read your subsequent clarification in response to my request to please elaborate. his line of reasoning about what you meant was the same as mine up until that point.
No problem. I'm not offended. Fear run pretty high with people when this subject is introduced. its natural to look for the most broad reasons first to exclude oneself from any possible association to it. Who wants to be labeled autistic? Which may be why its a good idea to use autism as a scale. Either that or change the category title. Makes no difference to me.
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#38 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 5:44 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:

Quite so! I shall return to AGW, vaccinations, and other pertainent political topics of which I know little or nothing at all.wink
8)
So this is normal behavior? *kidding* had to get one in. Peace, Monk!
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#39 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 6:39 PM:

cripes wrote:
I read that a few weeks ago. have you seen the test that went along with that article?

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

I scored a 37. thats when I got serious about checking further.

I'm taking the plunge and having a formal evaluation done. I'm getting a cash discount of $1500.00.

i hadn't heard of it. my score is 26, which doesn't surprise me, sounds about what i would have guessed.
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#40 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 6:49 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:
Quite so! I shall return to AGW, vaccinations, and other pertainent political topics of which I know little or nothing at all.wink

8)

ha. i think you have a talent for exploring all sides of an issue, i do enjoy your input when you feel inclined to share it. smiling face carry on good sir.
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#41 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 7:54 PM:

Do carry on with the discussion. There is some interesting topics to be explored. My main issue was with the connection to evolution.

In the end, what is an evolutionary advantage is only for historians of a distant era to comment on.

For us, we cannot and should not try to base any moral or political policy on perceived evolutionary advantages or disadvantages. In short, it isn't a question that we can practically answer. And it takes us into dangerous territory indeed should we try to force one.

*peace*
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#42 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/24/09 - 8:08 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:
For us, we cannot and should not try to base any moral or political policy on perceived evolutionary advantages or disadvantages. In short, it isn't a question that we can practically answer. And it takes us into dangerous territory indeed should we try to force one.

i think it's good to explore the benefits of autism, and of anything, really. if we can find a good side to any subject of interest, people aren't as quick to write it off, and it does help folks become more open to trying to understand it. cheers peace
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#43 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/25/09 - 4:33 AM:

For us, we cannot and should not try to base any moral or political policy on perceived evolutionary advantages or disadvantages.


Eek, the horror indeed.
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#44 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/25/09 - 4:41 AM:

cripes wrote:
I read that a few weeks ago. have you seen the test that went along with that article?

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

I scored a 37. thats when I got serious about checking further.

I'm taking the plunge and having a formal evaluation done. I'm getting a cash discount of $1500.00.





14. heh. Guess I'm just a very regular guy. grin

Edited by smokinpristiformis on 11/25/09 - 4:45 AM
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#45 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/25/09 - 11:09 AM:

smokinpristiformis wrote:



14. heh. Guess I'm just a very regular guy. grin
HA! *Cripes points his nose straight upward and shuffles away*
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#46 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 11/28/09 - 4:13 PM:

Is Autism a product of Natural Selection? (cripes)

Is thimerosal?



Even so, if babies were to remain babies longer, why is puberty apparently coming on earlier? (Monk2400)

Perhaps because everyone's food is jacked up on growth hormones.
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#47 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/04/09 - 9:39 AM:

The following are two very good talks on Autism which I watched on UCTV.tv. I can definitely relate to many points raised between the two.

Briefy:

1) I have always experienced Gastro Intestinal problems big time.
2) Both my parents were advanced age when I was concieved (46years old each)
3) inability to reduce excitability short term. Once I have time to think about things I do pretty good, but if I don't have that luxury, my responses are higher on the emotion scale.

There are others but I don't want to bore anyone.

http://www.uctv.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=17663

http://www.uctv.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=16239
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#48 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/04/09 - 9:45 AM:

JrnymnX wrote:
Is Autism a product of Natural Selection? (cripes)

Is thimerosal?
The problem I have with this is: what about my father and his mother. My father was born in 1911 and his mother way before that. Thimerosal hadn't come on the scene until sometime in the 1930's.



JrnymnX wrote:
Even so, if babies were to remain babies longer, why is puberty apparently coming on earlier? (Monk2400)

Perhaps because everyone's food is jacked up on growth hormones.
This is a pretty popular belief from what I've read, and I tend to agree, though I'm no expert on anything but me. Scary!
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#49 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/04/09 - 12:15 PM:

cripes wrote:
The problem I have with this is: what about my father and his mother. My father was born in 1911 and his mother way before that. Thimerosal hadn't come on the scene until sometime in the 1930's.


The idea isn't that mercury and its derivitives are the sole cause of autism, just that through their ingestion (particularly in the bloodstream) and collection in the brain also causes such a condition. Just like lung cancer might arise from smoking too much, but also from exposure to asbestos.

8)
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#50 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 12/04/09 - 12:30 PM:

Monk2400 wrote:


The idea isn't that mercury and its derivitives are the sole cause of autism, just that through their ingestion (particularly in the bloodstream) and collection in the brain also causes such a condition. Just like lung cancer might arise from smoking too much, but also from exposure to asbestos.

8)
I see your point, but in your cancer analogy you're using two outside influences for one problem. What are the other causes other than mercury that you're pointing to that also contribute to autism?

If you decide to take a look at the video's I've linked, you'll see that science is beginning to identify genes linked to autism.
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