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Is Moksha A Myth?

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Thinker13
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#26 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/10/09 - 2:25 AM:

libertygrl wrote:

thinker13, i would be interested in hearing about your personal experience which led you to this conclusion.

thank you,
lib


Yes,I am not sure,whether you are willing to know my life history or the philosophy behind the statement.zen. So,let me clarify the obfuscation around the sentence below first:


If we are all entitled to our own personal views, then why try to tell others what is 'for sure'...?

Thinker13 wrote:

NL wrote:

The desire for it as a fiction might at times obscure its possible attainment as a more mundane and frequent state of personal life fulfillment. Moksha couches the idea to which it refers in old, religious, far removed, mythic language when we could talk about happiness in a more conventional way.



Moksha is not related to happiness,that is for sure.zen


Look,that was written in response to Nihil Loc. It was suggested so because:

Moksha cannot be the highest happiness. Because,if there is a highest happiness,then there is a highest unhappiness too. The idea of happiness of highest type,is,perpetuated because,generally,we all aspire to find happiness. Happiness and Unhappiness are two sides of same coin. If there is a highest happiness,then one should never become unhappy again. If you are given that Moksha is end of all sort of experiences and it is end of unhappiness as well as happiness,you would rarely aspire for it(because,you aspire for happiness). That is why I said that Moksha is not about happiness. It is all about Beyond Happiness And Unhappiness. So,it is not my assertion that whether it exists or not,it is my way of looking at it.




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Nancy Drew
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#27 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/10/09 - 11:27 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:
Moksha/Liberation/Nirvana/Mukthi/Enlightenment-whatever you call it. Here are a few views on it--

zenDo you think that Moksha is a perpetuated myth?

No.

zen...what does convince you about such a state?

Visiting that state.

zen...what according to you,are reasons for perpetuation of this myth?


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People read about it, say, yes I was there too, then they use the same word when they write about it.
Thinker13
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#28 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/10/09 - 11:52 PM:

Nancy Drew wrote:

Visiting that state.



What are your views about this state,what is the difference between the pre and post scenarios?zen


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Nancy Drew
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#29 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/11/09 - 6:11 PM:

Thinker13 wrote:



What are your views about this state,what is the difference between the pre and post scenarios?zen


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There is nothing to say about it.

Going in and going out is the break-down and recovery experience.
Thinker13
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#30 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/11/09 - 10:40 PM:

Nancy Drew wrote:

There is nothing to say about it.


Let it pass over in silence.

Nancy Drew wrote:

Going in and going out is the break-down and recovery experience.


According to my view,there is no return of 'I'. It is a phenomenon where 'I' gets squelched,vanished. There is no more a coordinator acting between the senses.



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Zum
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#31 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/15/09 - 8:06 AM:

For me, moksha is imaginable because of the variety of experiences one has, and states or modalities one wanders through, during an ordinary life. Of course, "annihilation of the self, end of desire, end of suffering" sounds like a tall order--especially that melodramatic word "annihilation"; yet one does experience modest versions, in small doses, of those conditions. "Self-forgetfulness" can occur. The lovely thing about that state is that one isn't busy saying, "Wow, I'm forgetting myself"; which would be contrary to the nature of forgetting... Everybody experiences self-forgetfulness from time to time at work--if the job is exigent or engaging--in love, or caught up in something creative. The phrase "self-forgetfulness" might indicate a relief of the burden of "self", suggesting not a cessation of being, but a cessation of worried self-preoccupation. Desire and suffering go on vacations, too, particularly during experiences of "flow" in one's work, when one is operating in harmony with one's environment and with other people. These brief interludes of peace can also occur through certain activities designed precisely to produce them--meditation, dancing, maybe surfing (never did it, sounds like the right kind of thing), any sport, making music. They are not moksha, but they demonstrate the flexibility of the human psyche and suggest that moksha is possible. Why not?
Thinker13
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#32 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/15/09 - 8:19 AM:

Zum wrote:
For me, moksha is imaginable because of the variety of experiences one has, and states or modalities one wanders through, during an ordinary life.


Imaginable need not be possible. Is it?


Zum wrote:

Of course, "annihilation of the self, end of desire, end of suffering" sounds like a tall order--especially that melodramatic word "annihilation"; yet one does experience modest versions, in small doses, of those conditions.


Melodramatic? Funnylaughing. 'Modest Versions In Small Doses'--I like that,Zum.nod. Some thinkers suggest that 'witness sense' i.e. looking back at your own subtle perceptions,as if you are watching a movie,being aware of your own thoughts 'is moksha'. Hindus have a special word for it,they call it 'Drashta',literally meaning-'one who watches'. It means you are no longer actively participating in the world. A sort of Moksha.



"Self-forgetfulness" can occur. The lovely thing about that state is that one isn't busy saying, "Wow, I'm forgetting myself"; which would be contrary to the nature of forgetting... Everybody experiences self-forgetfulness from time to time at work--if the job is exigent or engaging--in love, or caught up in something creative. The phrase "self-forgetfulness" might indicate a relief of the burden of "self", suggesting not a cessation of being, but a cessation of worried self-preoccupation.


But liquors,psychedelics and sex do the same. Do they not?



Desire and suffering go on vacations, too, particularly during experiences of "flow" in one's work, when one is operating in harmony with one's environment and with other people. These brief interludes of peace can also occur through certain activities designed precisely to produce them--meditation, dancing, maybe surfing (never did it, sounds like the right kind of thing), any sport, making music. They are not moksha, but they demonstrate the flexibility of the human psyche and suggest that moksha is possible. Why not?


Yes,in agreement with you.
Wiki wrote:
Flow is the mental state of operation in which the person is fully immersed in what he or she is doing by a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and success in the process of the activity. Proposed by Mihály Csíkszentmihályi, the positive psychology concept has been widely referenced across a variety of fields.


The psychologist has written a book "Flow:Optimal Experience" or something like that.




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Zum
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#33 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/15/09 - 12:27 PM:

I can think of no argumentative link between "imaginable" and "possible," but there does seem to be a connection of some kind. A "block" in any sport or creative project is, in part or in whole, an abrupt failure of the imagination... Though I never could fly out the third story window down to the beach, I imagined and dreamed of doing it throughout childhood. But humans have invented a wide variety of flying contraptions, for which imagined flight seems a necessary precondition... Is imagined achievement necessary, though not sufficient, for achievement?... One part of social competence is the whole-body sense whether an encounter, a question or a remark will have a favorable outcome. Sometimes one is visited by certainty: this will work. Sometimes one is visited by certainty and is wrong. Hm.

Imagination is this unreliable co-pilot.

Yes, certainly liquor, drugs and sex do the same.whee
Thinker13
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#34 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/15/09 - 12:39 PM:

Zum wrote:
I can think of no argumentative link between "imaginable" and "possible," but there does seem to be a connection of some kind.


Exactly.



I imagined and dreamed of doing it throughout childhood. But humans have invented a wide variety of flying contraptions, for which imagined flight seems a necessary precondition...


You were an ambitious child.



Is imagined achievement necessary, though not sufficient, for achievement?... One part of social competence is the whole-body sense whether an encounter, a question or a remark will have a favorable outcome. Sometimes one is visited by certainty: this will work. Sometimes one is visited by certainty and is wrong. Hm.


Yes,if you could feel it,you could get it.



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libertygrl
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#35 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/16/09 - 3:51 PM:

some related quotes

Mark Balocco wrote:

Visualization techniques have been used for many years for different applications. Psychiatrists use a form of visualization, hypnosis, for purposes ranging from curing depression to helping crime witnesses recall their experiences. Terminally ill patients have been known to "mysteriously" cure themselves by visualizing or imagining getting well. Artists visualize or imagine their work before expressing their images on canvas, stone, or metal. Athletes, especially those who follow predetermined programs, such as skaters and skiers, visualize their performance repeatedly prior to competition as a form of practice. Napoleon fought battles in his mind, then found that the visualization made real battles easier to win. Albert Einstein said, "Visualization is more important than knowledge."

American Museum of Natural History wrote:

Even as a teenager, Einstein was fascinated by the nature of light. When he was just 16 years old, Einstein tried to imagine what it would be like to ride on a beam of light. Could he travel as fast as light? Could he travel faster?

In 1905, nearly a decade after this first "thought experiment," Einstein answered these questions with his Special Theory of Relativity. The theory, which revolutionized our understanding of time and space, is based on Einstein's astonishing recognition that light always travels at a constant speed, regardless of how fast you're moving when you measure it. Einstein's explorations into the fundamental properties of light also laid the groundwork for his most impressive achievement, the General Theory of Relativity.

source
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5308246.html
www.amnh.org/exhibitions/ei...s/einstein/light/index.php
smokinpristiformis
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#36 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/17/09 - 1:48 AM:

Someone who knows these things once told me that we are happy when our two brain-halves are working together intensely and without disagreement. I suppose focussing all your mental energy into a single, enjoyable task will get you that. smiling face
Monk2400
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#37 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/17/09 - 2:39 AM:

Or pumping your head full of biurnal beats. whee
Thinker13
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#38 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/17/09 - 3:09 AM:

smokinpristiformis wrote:
Someone who knows these things once told me that we are happy when our two brain-halves are working together intensely and without disagreement. I suppose focussing all your mental energy into a single, enjoyable task will get you that. smiling face


I do not have insights into the physiology of Enlightened beings. Still,tradition suggests something similar to your views.smiling face

They suggest that there are many(about 72000) pathways for the flow of life energy in your body. Three of such pathways known as 'Ida','Pingla' and 'Sushumna' are of utmost importance.

They suggest that when life energy(qi/chi/praana) flows through 'sushumna',your thinking becomes 'extremely spiritual' and in case of Moksha,there is optimal flow of qi from sushumna.

Very interesting thing to note is: This flow of praana from sushumna,accompanies flow of breathe,simultaneously from both of your nostrils. Which means,optimal relationship between both hemispheres(as you have suggested and has been shown by various experiments).

It is worthy of being noticed that usually you breathe from any one of your nostrils fully,while the other one is almost jammed. In case of left nostril,right hemisphere is controlling and in case of right nostril,left hemisphere is controlling the breathing.


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Thinker13
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#39 - Quote - Permalink
Posted 06/17/09 - 3:13 AM:

Monk2400 wrote:
Or pumping your head full of biurnal beats. whee


Indeed. Something similar we discussed in the 'sounds of universe' thread. Solfeggio frequencies,Diggeraloo(I cannot spell it!),chantings and so on...smiling face


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