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Marilyn, Take Back Your Face

Comments on Marilyn, Take Back Your Face

Zum
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Zum
Posted 05/10/09 - 10:13 AM:
Subject: Marilyn, Take Back Your Face
Out of her weird face, stamped on her
clay,
she looks at shapes, fantasies,
trees in their shocking reality,
other faces,
sniffs the customary brew of steaming
imperatives.

Her face is masklike: holds her life
in,
as warrior totems contain,
distill, words of courage.

To the numerous world, looking everywhere
for faces, hers offers itself
as icon, as assurance, as landmark--

never as a face.
Not really as a face.


Zum
Thinker13
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Posted 05/11/09 - 1:11 AM:

Zum wrote:
Out of her weird face, stamped on her
clay,
she looks at shapes, fantasies,
trees in their shocking reality,
other faces,
sniffs the customary brew of steaming
imperatives.

Her face is masklike: holds her life
in,
as warrior totems contain,
distill, words of courage.

To the numerous world, looking everywhere
for faces, hers offers itself
as icon, as assurance, as landmark--


never as a face.
Not really as a face.


Zum



Being honest tried hard to figure it out.Was 'beyond comprehension' at times.Yet Marilyn is a maverick,methinks,who is nearer to the truth than most of her neighbors--she is a hidden rebel?I can not figure it out actually shaking head



Thank You


Edited by Thinker13 on 05/11/09 - 7:53 AM
Zum
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Zum
Posted 05/11/09 - 3:59 AM:

Aw. Well, the poem refers to Marilyn Monroe as image, also, implicitly, to the possibility of becoming an image. The actual woman has been dead a very long time, but her photos are everywhere still. The poem assumes that a real face would be a frontier over which others might pass to the person's interior reality. The face--as well as other expressive members-- gives or denies access to this inner sanctuary. When you know someone well, the most subtle expression on his or her face can be eloquent. A face is rather like a window sometimes uncurtained, a door sometimes unlocked.
The poem postulates that "Marilyn's" face became an icon on which people could fasten whatever personal fantasy they wished--adoration, desire, admiration, envy. In order to use the Marilyn image in this way, it was necessary--at least while doing the perverse magic--to extinguish all acknowledgment of her inwardness. Thus for the person of the poem, "Marilyn," the rift between inner and outer has become a gulf.
And her life is unbearable, for of course she has an inner reality. With this in mind I chose words like "warrior" "totems" and "courage." The totems of indigenous people are at times faces that express warrior courage at the utmost, not ferocity so much as intense focus and not much else.
The words "clay" and "in" should be indented.
Thank you very much for your feedback, Thinker!

Zum smiling face

Thinker13
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Posted 05/11/09 - 8:06 AM:

Zum wrote:
When you know someone well, the most subtle expression on his or her face can be eloquent. A face is rather like a window sometimes uncurtained, a door sometimes unlocked.
The poem postulates that "Marilyn's" face became an icon on which people could fasten whatever personal fantasy they wished--adoration, desire, admiration, envy. In order to use the Marilyn image in this way, it was necessary--at least while doing the perverse magic--to extinguish all acknowledgment of her inwardness. Thus for the person of the poem, "Marilyn," the rift between inner and outer has become a gulf.

Thank you very much for your feedback, Thinker!

Zum smiling face




Oh my bad!It was for Marilyn Monroe takes a bowI have not read much about her.Her death was perhaps a mystery.Yes,well known faces can act eloquently for conveying some impressions.Still you can say that people have thousands of invented faces(memes) which are 'false faces' and none of them is their true inward appearance.Your "gulf between inner and outer" suggests the same thing.A child might be said to have a true face but very soon he learns memetically to put on borrowed faces,each to deal with unique situations,to derive pleasure from each and every instance.Otherwise in the harsh realities of life his true face gets scratched,burnt and ugly.You can think of it like you have myriads of mask to put on in different situations of life.If you use them,your true mask may get lost,yet remains there,hidden.But if you do not use them,you find that a single mask gets hurt,burnt,scratched.



Thank You
Zum
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Zum
Posted 05/11/09 - 10:18 AM:

That is certainly true. Let me add that each mask in the collection might--I say, might--represent an aspect of the person's inner reality. Each mask--which, after all, has been designed by the person herself--might signify an attempt to reveal herself insofar as the context allows. If she has a whole array of masks on her wall, carefully made, each one, at very least, reveals an aspect of her artistry, of her imagination, thereby revealing something of herself.

Someone in my family says that, at a mass hanging out, he can drift from person to person, picking up the social rhythms (so to speak) of each and modifying his style and approach as he goes. Through this tactic he makes each person comfortable, and they have a good time, and so does he. I think he has an awesome social gift. But, of course, the subtlest shift of intent might propel him into hypocrisy--as in chaos theory...smiling face

In the case of "Marilyn," her image, the single mask, so overwhelms others that everyone's eye stops at the mask's surface; it becomes public property; everything comes to depend on its opaqueness and perfection. She, "the perceived of all perceivers," is unseen. sad
Thinker13
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Posted 05/12/09 - 12:46 PM:

Zum wrote:
each mask in the collection might--I say, might--represent an aspect of the person's inner reality. Each mask--which, after all, has been designed by the person herself--might signify an attempt to reveal herself insofar as the context allows. If she has a whole array of masks on her wall, carefully made, each one, at very least, reveals an aspect of her artistry, of her imagination, thereby revealing something of herself.


Indeed.The selection of memes has always something to do with the essence of your being.Otherwise there can not be variety of masks.


Zum wrote:

Someone in my family says that, at a mass hanging out, he can drift from person to person, picking up the social rhythms (so to speak) of each and modifying his style and approach as he goes. Through this tactic he makes each person comfortable, and they have a good time, and so does he. I think he has an awesome social gift. But, of course, the subtlest shift of intent might propel him into hypocrisy--as in chaos theory...smiling face



I beg to differ here.It seems to me that a person who has excellent interpersonal skills is capable of choosing good masks based on his emotional intelligence.In its core it is based on best knowledge of yourself--better you know thyself,better the treatment given by you to the others.More connected you are to the TAO,more humble you are.And there is a world of difference between being really humble and pretending to be.It can be suggested that your chaos theory connection applies well but mostly regarding the reading done by the person who receives your behavior.It is skillful choosing of mask,which becomes an appreciable interpersonal feeling in social gatherings.In our online conversations,for example,we choose our words and emoticons to express our intents.zen


Zum wrote:

In the case of "Marilyn," her image, the single mask, so overwhelms others that everyone's eye stops at the mask's surface; it becomes public property; everything comes to depend on its opaqueness and perfection. She, "the perceived of all perceivers," is unseen. sad


How did you get these notions about her?




Thank You
Zum
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Zum
Posted 05/12/09 - 8:28 PM:

About your difference, if I understood it: smiling face when we chose our masks for Forum, we (probably) did so with care; and we get to keep the same ones. HE--the person of my anecdote--whips them on and off like the street performer in the movie "King of Masks..."

About your question, "How did you get these notions about her?"

That's a hard one; I'll answer it as well as I can.

I don't want you to think that I'm being mean to the deceased actor; celebs, living and dead, take enough abuse as it is.wink The person of my poem is "the Marilyn paradigm," or quote-Marilyn-unquote.

About where it came from: first, it's a feminist idea. It was passionately comprehended before women began to be called "women" instead of "girls" in their work places. It's also an idea familiar to anyone else who has been stereotyped and reliably approached AS that stereotype. That's a lot of people. Books have been written about stereotyping: often they reveal how the stereotyping leads to other forms of oppression. It might be more correct to say, "enables other forms of oppression." Examples are the books by Marilyn French and other feminists; The Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison, an awesome book; Native Son by Richard Wright; The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison. To be stereotyped, of course, is to be confused with one's image... I'm sure you know all this. wink

Secondly, my sister wrote this poem:

WHY HER NAME AND FACE ARE EVERYWHERE

On the West side the palms
line up straight along
Boulevards and head
for the sea, but even there
the air looks bleached as if
heat had scorched the color out.

The bends and turns of the Harbor
Freeway enter Downtown's
tall buildings. Small cars
are hunting for shade. They say
the next quake will pop
the plate glass VP's gaze

down from, bury these streets
under ten feet of shards. Imagine
the reflected sun, the great
shine. Imagine the future.
In the East side's Egg
'n' Burger shacks wet

bodies hunch up, touch
those old lotto stubs in their pockets,
washed soft and unlucky. One pulls
a kingsize from its pack
and smokes in this heat. He's small
but leans back heavily

and tries not to think. And the video
game lights keep blinking at
full noon. Traffic shines.

Diesel fumes burst
out black, blossom, then vanish
up. God we
need a charm for this
city, a name like a prayer
to save us. Be alchemy that changes
base metal to gold. Be cool
like water. Do it--make
the real less real, Marilyn

Monroe.

Suzanne Lummis, from "In Danger"


(She lives in Los Angeles.) I love the poem. Its focus isn't primarily on Marilyn or the Marilyn image, but on those who have to roast in that steel and glass perpetual summer.

Mine was partly prompted by it.

Thanks

Zum
Thinker13
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Posted 05/13/09 - 3:40 AM:

Zum wrote:
About your difference, if I understood it: smiling face when we chose our masks for Forum, we (probably) did so with care; and we get to keep the same ones. HE--the person of my anecdote--whips them on and off like the street performer in the movie "King of Masks..."



grinlaughinggrin





Zum wrote:

About where it came from: first, it's a feminist idea. It was passionately comprehended before women began to be called "women" instead of "girls" in their work places. It's also an idea familiar to anyone else who has been stereotyped and reliably approached AS that stereotype. That's a lot of people. Books have been written about stereotyping: often they reveal how the stereotyping leads to other forms of oppression. It might be more correct to say, "enables other forms of oppression.


Yessmiling face



Zum wrote:

" Examples are the books by Marilyn French and other feminists; The Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison, an awesome book; Native Son by Richard Wright; The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison. To be stereotyped, of course, is to be confused with one's image... I'm sure you know all this. wink



No I do not know all this,but I am getting youzen



Zum wrote:

Secondly, my sister wrote this poem:

WHY HER NAME AND FACE ARE EVERYWHERE

On the West side the palms
line up straight along
Boulevards and head
for the sea, but even there
the air looks bleached as if
heat had scorched the color out.

The bends and turns of the Harbor
Freeway enter Downtown's
tall buildings. Small cars
are hunting for shade. They say
the next quake will pop
the plate glass VP's gaze


down from, bury these streets
under ten feet of shards. Imagine
the reflected sun, the great
shine. Imagine the future.
In the East side's Egg
'n' Burger shacks wet


bodies hunch up, touch
those old lotto stubs in their pockets,
washed soft and unlucky. One pulls
a kingsize from its pack
and smokes in this heat. He's small
but leans back heavily

and tries not to think. And the video
game lights keep blinking at
full noon. Traffic shines.

Diesel fumes burst
out black, blossom, then vanish
up. God we
need a charm for this
city, a name like a prayer
to save us. Be alchemy that changes
base metal to gold. Be cool
like water. Do it--make
the real less real, Marilyn

Monroe.

Suzanne Lummis, from "In Danger"





(She lives in Los Angeles.) I love the poem. Its focus isn't primarily on Marilyn or the Marilyn image, but on those who have to roast in that steel and glass perpetual summer.

Mine was partly prompted by it.

Thanks

Zum



Beautiful.I am unable to understand bold lines above.Earlier, I have not heard about the work of Suzanne.I am not much into the English poetry,though,I have a good taste,specially for mysticism and imagery in poetry.zen


I was curious to know about the way you conceived the idea.It is nice to learn how you came up with it





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