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The Dominant Seven

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Zum
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Posted 04/24/09 - 11:57 AM:
Subject: The Dominant Seven
What are the seven thoughts that dominate your life?

What are seven thoughts that you have never allowed yourself to flirt with, or have an affair with? Zum
libertygrl
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Posted 04/24/09 - 1:19 PM:

hmm...

seven thoughts that dominate my life, off the top of my head:

- love
- dreams are cool
- analyze
- interpret
- candid expression
- artistic expression
- travel

the second question is a little more difficult. by saying that you've never allowed yourself something, it seems to suggest the repression of a desire. if that is the case, i could cite entertaining infidelities (the notion of which also seems to be conjured by the flirtation & affair mentioned in the question). violence toward a person (specifically toward bullies) is something that has crossed my mind during moments of outrage which i have steered clear of dwelling on.

i could cite things like murder, or the abuse of a child or animal, etc., but these are things for which i have no desire, so i don't know if they qualify. outside of these, there are a great number of thoughts & scenarios that are or have been open to contemplation.

how about you, zum?
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Posted 04/24/09 - 9:05 PM:

Yeah, Lib, I'm working on it. Since they are repressed, it makes sense that they would come slowly. I should have mentioned that the repressed things I had in mind were not things that, if enacted, would limit and screw up my life--like committing a murder. I was thinking of things that would expand life, but that were beyond the boundaries of my imagination and self esteem, and so, outside the limits of what I can have. I once went to a place where a guy gave a Celtic performance: he sang, played musical instruments, told jokes, told stories: among other things, he played a harp. I was struck by the generous ambit of what he could permit himself. It seemed to me that that most people, especially most men (perhaps), whose fingers itched to play a harp, would snuff that desire so quickly, it would not even arrive at full consciousness. I remember thinking to myself, "Imagine the self esteem he must have, in order to allow himself to HAVE THAT."
Zum
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Posted 04/27/09 - 1:23 PM:

Hey, I guess my point with this was that the unthought, the unthinkable represents the personal limit, the uncrossed or unbreachable frontier--where the person won't or can't go.

When someone says, "What do you suppress?" a conditioned response is to think about criminal impulses and stuff like that.

But often ideas that are not criminal--great ideas, in fact--are suppressed with the same vigor and resolution... They don't match the self-image we have worked up. We wouldn't have time to realize them anyway. Our friends would not like them. Significant persons in our lives would be so upset. Zum shaking head
Thinker13
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Posted 04/27/09 - 3:09 PM:

Hello Charlotte!Good point.I think, I did a similar experiment with some of my neighbors by asking them to write down the ten most important words for them(OR to write randomly ten words which were most appealing to them without allowing their squelching processes of conscious editors to kick-in!)--I don't know how much I succeeded in interpreting their psyches yet it was a lot of fun.

In answer to your first question :Moksha,Origin And End Of All Things,Truth,Meditation are some of the main thoughts which have affected my life.
In answer to your second question : I would like to draw your attention to a Neptunian ability of dissolving your boundaries momentarily.Suppose you are a playwright --if you are capable of putting on heads of various characters then it would make you an excellent one--otherwise you are most likely to miss the power to induce sheer force of imagery and feelings into your reader.Similarly if you are a spiritual counselor,then,you should be able to penetrate into the skin of the person who has come to you,in order to actually feel the envy,guilt,rage etc which is troubling him.Similarly,you can be a method actor like Marlon Brando...I think,I can go on and on and on...I hope to have made my point.I do feel that there is no unthinkable for me..in this sense at least !

rolling eyes Thank Yousmiling face
Zum
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Posted 05/14/09 - 6:51 AM:

A belated answer: Yes.nod In reference to the Neptunian ability of dissolving boundaries, I'm trying to write fiction, and that ability seems to be one of the bottom line requirements.

Zum
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Posted 05/14/09 - 10:33 AM:

Zum wrote:
A belated answer: Yes.nod In reference to the Neptunian ability of dissolving boundaries, I'm trying to write fiction, and that ability seems to be one of the bottom line requirements.

Zum



Best of luck for your work,Zumzen

Neptunian Quality :This term has been taken from Astrology.A pleasant aspect of Neptune with the Moon in the natal chart of a native confers some peculiar sensitivities,which,at times, may seem to be 'psychic'.In case of conjunction,a person quite often dissolves his boundaries,gets into the skin of the neighbor,for a while,and then,realizes that he is bound to be his 'body'--he realizes "I am me"--this is the brief experience of becoming 'other',highly developed after practice in --spiritual counselors,charismatic gurus,playwrights,method actors etc.On the down side-this aspect creates,highly sensitive persons,consistently absorbing energies from their surrounding.In case of negative environment,such people tend to absorb too much negativity,resulting in trauma,allergies,physical pain etc.
Zum
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Zum
Posted 05/14/09 - 12:33 PM:

Thank you, Thinkersmiling face

So the ideal is to have the sensitivity and also some efficient boundaries that are available when needed?

Zum
Thinker13
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Posted 05/14/09 - 12:56 PM:

Zum wrote:
Thank you, Thinkersmiling face


You are welcome,Zumzen


Zum wrote:

So the ideal is to have the sensitivity and also some efficient boundaries that are available when needed?

Zum


Yes,it is the 'ideal' but very difficult one to realize.It seems to have been a problem with so many persons.You might have read about sensitive souls,artists and intellectuals,like,Beethovan,Nietzsche etc to name a few,who ceaselessly struggled to find a balance.Your sensitivities,thin boundaries between conscious and unconscious,tend to make you childlike,but in order to survive,in a world,full of personalities of all types,you require flamboyance too.You might have heard about the research which suggests that poets tend to have shorter life spans.My personal experience suggests that those who create verses only,tend to live lesser,due to heightened emotionality and sensitivity,while those who create prose,as well as verses,tend to live longer.In any case,philosophers,thinkers,researchers,tend to live longer than poets and artists(not to be taken too literally).




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praxis
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Posted 05/14/09 - 1:41 PM:

Charlotte Stuart wrote:
What are the seven thoughts that dominate your life?

What are seven thoughts that you have never allowed yourself to flirt with, or have an affair with? Zum


I was in a club the other night salsa dancing and realized that the word 'emptiness' had become a term of romance.
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Posted 05/15/09 - 1:05 PM:

Charles Dickens was the matador of empathy. In A Tale of Two Cities he has a stream of collective consciousness-- that of peasant women, some of whose relatives have died of hunger. The women are surging forth as a mob to torture and kill an aristocrat--the French Revolution being in its howling infant stages. The aristocrat, in the days of his power, said of the people, "Let them eat grass." (In Dickens' book he said it; historically he may have said it, or said something similar.) The women are in a frenzy, recalling their babies who died, their fathers who died; they believe for the moment that the villain's torture and death will suffice; but for them, eternal punishment would not be enough vengeance...

Then on the NEXT PAGE, I'm blessed if Dickens doesn't empathize with Foulon, the aristocrat, as he is dragged out to be punished by the crowd. "Down, and up, his head foremost on the steps of the building; now, on his knees now, on his feet; now, on his back; dragged and struck at, and stifled by the bunches of grass and straw that were thrust into his face . .always entreating and beseeching for mercy." You want to say, "Hey! Leave the poor old guy alone." The empathy precludes easy satisfaction... Dickens was aware that suffering, however incurred, is always and only suffering.

Zum
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Posted 05/15/09 - 4:14 PM:

Zum wrote:
Charles Dickens was the matador of empathy. In A Tale of Two Cities he has a stream of collective consciousness-- that of peasant women, some of whose relatives have died of hunger. The women are surging forth as a mob to torture and kill an aristocrat--the French Revolution being in its howling infant stages. The aristocrat, in the days of his power, said of the people, "Let them eat grass." (In Dickens' book he said it; historically he may have said it, or said something similar.) The women are in a frenzy, recalling their babies who died, their fathers who died; they believe for the moment that the villain's torture and death will suffice; but for them, eternal punishment would not be enough vengeance...

Then on the NEXT PAGE, I'm blessed if Dickens doesn't empathize with Foulon, the aristocrat, as he is dragged out to be punished by the crowd. "Down, and up, his head foremost on the steps of the building; now, on his knees now, on his feet; now, on his back; dragged and struck at, and stifled by the bunches of grass and straw that were thrust into his face . .always entreating and beseeching for mercy." You want to say, "Hey! Leave the poor old guy alone." The empathy precludes easy satisfaction... Dickens was aware that suffering, however incurred, is always and only suffering.

Zum





Well put.I would try reading "A Tale Of Two Cities" soon.Have you read "The Brothers Karamazov"?



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Zum
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Posted 05/15/09 - 5:34 PM:

Yep. Loved the story about the Grand Inquisitor. But I'd like to reread the book. Do you think the three brothers are three aspects of the author?smiling facerolling eyes grin

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Posted 05/15/09 - 5:39 PM:

Zum wrote:
Yep. Loved the story about the Grand Inquisitor. But I'd like to reread the book. Do you think the three brothers are three aspects of the author?smiling facerolling eyes grin

Zumclap




Yes.Tri-polar disordergringringrin.Almost all of Dostoevsky works are autobiographical.I love his attention to detailszen



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Zum
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Posted 05/16/09 - 1:06 PM:

Or multipolar disorder. As I recall, some of his books are EXTREMELY populous, and each individual contains several chattering quasi-personalities. I guess Crime and Punishment is his most pared down and suspenseful work; all characters have a function; a person can summarize the plot in a sentence or two. Even in this book, most of the characters are bifurcated (or else they are simple-minded). The former category include the murderer, the drunk, the prostitute, the doomed villain, and the PWEW (the pretty woman everybody wants). Two characters are exceptional, operating from a single idea: the protagonist's friend, Razumikhin, and the detective. I don't see much division in them; somebody else might.

As for The Brothers Karamazov--I seem to recall a collection of extraneous & neurotic people . . . I really must read it again.smiling face

Zum
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Posted 05/16/09 - 10:00 PM:

Zum wrote:
Or multipolar disorder. As I recall, some of his books are EXTREMELY populous, and each individual contains several chattering quasi-personalities.



Exactly.The way each and everyone of his characters narrates himself,is excellent.smiling faceThe capability of a writer like Dostoevsky lies in the detail oriented description of each and every character's psyche.



Zum wrote:

I guess Crime and Punishment is his most pared down and suspenseful work; all characters have a function; a person can summarize the plot in a sentence or two. Even in this book, most of the characters are bifurcated (or else they are simple-minded).


A very intriguing work,indeed.zen


Zum wrote:

The former category include the murderer, the drunk, the prostitute, the doomed villain, and the PWEW (the pretty woman everybody wants). Two characters are exceptional, operating from a single idea: the protagonist's friend, Razumikhin, and the detective. I don't see much division in them; somebody else might.



Have you seen movies "The Fight Club" and "The Machinist"?The later one,is dramatic as well as calm in its proceedings,while the former one is slightly fast and violent.Both of these show bifurcated protagonists."The Machinist" is based on Dostoevesky's work.Christian Bale has done a good jobsmiling face


Zum wrote:

Two characters are exceptional, operating from a single idea: the protagonist's friend, Razumikhin, and the detective. I don't see much division in them; somebody else might.



Like you can say that three brothers of "The Brothers Karamazov" are nothing but three sides of the same personality.

Zum wrote:

for The Brothers Karamazov--I seem to recall a collection of extraneous & neurotic people . . . I really must read it again.smiling face

Zum
.


Guess who was most neurotic?'Alyoca'-why?Because,religious people are most neurotic people.They have with in them,this,neurotic fear gnawing them,day in and day out.




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Zum
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Posted 05/18/09 - 10:35 AM:

Hm. "Religious people" is an awfully big category. raised eyebrow

I think there are some religions whose survival arrangements have included scaring people, or trying to scare them...

Would the term "religious people" encompass anyone who acknowledges any kind of higher principle or higher power? Adherents to all religions, everywhere?

Zum
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Posted 05/18/09 - 1:13 PM:

Zum wrote:
Hm. "Religious people" is an awfully big category. raised eyebrow




Indeed.cool

Zum wrote:

I think there are some religions whose survival arrangements have included scaring people, or trying to scare them...


I can not quote a single religion which has not used 'fear' as its survival and proliferation mechanism.shaking head


Zum wrote:

Would the term "religious people" encompass anyone who acknowledges any kind of higher principle or higher power? Adherents to all religions, everywhere?
Zum



What I intended to say is-people who are fearful because of themselves,people who can not face their own selves because of the fear it causes,are neurotic.Religious,or any other type,if they are trying to be something else('better','liberated','pious' etc)--than what they really are, are 'neurotic',scared to face 'reality',scared to face 'what they are'.They live in 'ideals',they pursue 'ideals',they peruse 'ideals' but never realize them,because,they are incessantly running after mirages.They are running after 'morrows',they are looking for something which doesn't exist,that is 'ideal'.




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Zum
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Posted 05/18/09 - 2:56 PM:

In every case?

All right, suppose I wanta be able to jog farther than I can now.
Surely I can do that, through incremental practice? No mirage there, right? You just take it a little farther every day.

Now suppose I want to learn to treat people better, identify with their points of view more frequently instead of clutching my own, remember their birthdays. That nudges "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you"--an idealistic (maybe a religious) precept. I would adore to have people identify with my point of view; I love it when they remember my birthday. Now, are you telling me I can't learn to do that? wink Make birthday lists; try to understand where they are coming from.peace

What about the Jewish precept (I just learned about this one; it's pretty cool): do good for others without hope of reward, because it is the law. Similar to the Christian precept about the left hand and that right hand that don't pay attention to each other.smiling face Now I KNOW people who do that sort of thing...

Zum
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Posted 05/18/09 - 3:33 PM:

Zum wrote:
In every case?


Yes,perhaps,let me get therezen


Zum wrote:

All right, suppose I wanta be able to jog farther than I can now.
Surely I can do that, through incremental practice? No mirage there, right? You just take it a little farther every day.


To augment skills,is not pursuing an ideal,provided,you are in perfect harmony with what you ARE today.clap
Zum wrote:

Now suppose I want to learn to treat people better, identify with their points of view more frequently instead of clutching my own, remember their birthdays. That nudges "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you"--an idealistic (maybe a religious) precept. I would adore to have people identify with my point of view; I love it when they remember my birthday. Now, are you telling me I can't learn to do that? wink Make birthday lists; try to understand where they are coming from.peace
.

No,I am not telling you that you can not.I have no doubt on your abilitieswink.What I am telling is the way we look at it.'Ideal' is always in 'future'.'Future' is nowhere.Am I vague?Tell me,if I amzen



Zum wrote:

What about the Jewish precept (I just learned about this one; it's pretty cool): do good for others without hope of reward, because it is the law.


Laws are trapslaughing.Laws of state are seemingly better than religious ones.If you are not sensitive enough to treat well others,all laws are likely to reinforce your proclivity to be hypocrite,rather than being an original sensitive individual.


Zum wrote:

Similar to the Christian precept about the left hand and that right hand that don't pay attention to each other.smiling face Now I KNOW people who do that sort of thing...
Zum


How do you knowraised eyebrow



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Zum
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Posted 05/18/09 - 4:52 PM:

Touche.smiling face
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Posted 05/18/09 - 5:33 PM:

speaking of carl jung (in the great thinkers thread), and of neurosis, i am reminded of a great quote from his man and his symbols:

jung wrote:
Then there are certain events of which we have not consciously taken note; they have remained, so to speak, below the threshold of consciousness. They have happened, but they have been absorbed subliminally, without our conscious knowledge. We can become aware of such happenings only in a moment of intuition or by a process of profound thought that leads to a later realization that they must have happened; and though we may have originally ignored their emotional and vital importance, it later wells up from the unconscious as a sort of after-thought.

It may appear, for instance, in the form of a dream. As a general rule, the unconscious aspect of any event is revealed to us in dreams, where it appears not as a rational thought but as a symbolic image. As a matter of history, it was the study of dreams that first enabled psychologists to investigate the unconscious aspect of conscious psychic events.

It is on such evidence that psychologists assume the existence of an unconscious psyche - though many scientists and philosophers deny its existence. They argue naively that such an assumption implies the existence of two "subjects", or (to put it in a common phrase) two personalities within the same individual. But this is exactly what it does imply - quite correctly. And it is one of the curses of modern man that many people suffer from this divided personality. It is by no means a pathological symptom; it is a normal fact that can be observed at any time and everywhere. It is not merely the neurotic whose right hand does not know what the left hand is doing. This predicament is a symptom of a general unconsciousness that is the undeniable common inheritance of all mankind.

Zum
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Posted 05/18/09 - 6:08 PM:

I would want to ask Jung to clarify: If duality is "the undeniable common inheritance of all mankind," how is it "one of the curses of modern man"? Doubtless he explains this elsewhere in the book.

But I totally agree with the gist of the passage--that duality is inevitable. A certain duality is introduced, it seems, from the start: we begin with two parents. The impact of these people is indelible if they stay around for any appreciable period.

But Jung is talking about the unconscious. From the description cited, it looks as though this is, as it were, the goal keeper on the soccer field, catching--when it can--whatever goes past the other players. An analogy from sports may seem odd for a psychological configuration. This analogy at least has the advantage that, like the conscious mind, the soccer players other than the goal keeper are really quite busy, dashing about, always in present time. The goal keeper, in contrast, seems passive; but his or her attention and response need to be exquisite. The conscious mind in general is all about coping with the person's daily life and keeping things appropriately simple; the unconscious picks up nuances and subtleties which the conscious mind does not have time for or cannot bear.

Interesting. Duality become a problem when one is trying to force oneself to do something, or not to do something, and the configuration of forces that interpenetrate the lassitude, or the habit, won't have it, and won't play. shaking head No, no, no. They are not on board. This can result in a ferocious and exhausting inner struggle... Going on a diet. Quitting something. disapproval The only way forward in such cases seems to be somehow to dissolve the dualism, bring to parley the two factions.peace

Zum
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Posted 05/18/09 - 9:40 PM:

Zum wrote:

But Jung is talking about the unconscious. From the description cited, it looks as though this is, as it were, the goal keeper on the soccer field, catching--when it can--whatever goes past the other players. An analogy from sports may seem odd for a psychological configuration. This analogy at least has the advantage that, like the conscious mind, the soccer players other than the goal keeper are really quite busy, dashing about, always in present time. The goal keeper, in contrast, seems passive; but his or her attention and response need to be exquisite. The conscious mind in general is all about coping with the person's daily life and keeping things appropriately simple; the unconscious picks up nuances and subtleties which the conscious mind does not have time for or cannot bear.

Zum


Good analogy.Something on the nature of unconscious :

The Einstein Factor(Win Wenger,Ph.D.) wrote:
Paying attention is a skill with limited usefulness.Scientists calculate that human brain can pay attention to only about 126 bits of information per second.Simply listening to another person talk occupies about 40 bits of 'attention'.That leaves only 86 bits to watch what you are going to say next.
Yet,our minds are flooded each second by perceptions involving hundreds of times more than 126 bits.Experiments have shown that human retina can detect single photon at a time and nose reacts to as little as one molecule of scent.These perceptions flow constantly into our brains,but they are squelched before they ever reach consciousness.That explains why,in certain rare cases,brain injuries will trigger extraordinary leaps in sensory ability.By a perverse coincidence,such lesions short circuit "The Squelcher" and allow in more perception.A neurochemical imbalance called Addison's disease,for example,has been known to heighten the sense of taste by as much as 150 times.
What happens to subtle perceptions when they are squelched?Contrary to common sense,they are neither lost nor destroyed.In fact,the latest evidence suggests that human memory approaches 100 percent retention.We remember potentially everything.Yet,most of these memories lie so deep in unconscious that,until quite recently,psychologists had no means of retrieving them other than inducing a profound hypnotic trance.



This formation of unconscious is always in process,until unless,someone becomes a complete Drashta.Through the process of Individuation one brings forth unconscious into conscious.There is no division like conscious/unconscious.It is merely for the purpose of study that we call some of our perceptions unconscious and others conscious.The formation of unconscious is result of lack of awareness of our own perceptions.Individuation not only helps us become more conscious,but also reinforces integrity,focus,sensitivity and true morality.




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Posted 05/18/09 - 9:53 PM:

Zum wrote:

But I totally agree with the gist of the passage--that duality is inevitable. A certain duality is introduced, it seems, from the start: we begin with two parents. The impact of these people is indelible if they stay around for any appreciable period.


Divided personality might still be there,while one of parents OR both of the parents depart early in your life.Another factor is Anima/Animus OR Yin/Yang OR Shiv/Shakthi of the personality.They are,in my opinion,more grueling constituents,speaking up for themselves.Though,I am not talking about disorder OR unconscious in general but rather about forces of nature.A lot of human health is dependent on harmony between Yin/Yang elements.You can say it is harmony between conscious and unconscious(only an analogy).It is this harmony between logical/intuitive fractions contributing in a healthy whole.

Zum wrote:

Interesting. Duality become a problem when one is trying to force oneself to do something, or not to do something, and the configuration of forces that interpenetrate the lassitude, or the habit, won't have it, and won't play. shaking head No, no, no. They are not on board. This can result in a ferocious and exhausting inner struggle... Going on a diet. Quitting something. disapproval The only way forward in such cases seems to be somehow to dissolve the dualism, bring to parley the two factions.peace
Zum


This 'somehow' is our main concernzen




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